Sam was a practising specialist litigation lawyer who started on the spiritual path about 10 years ago after having a breakdown ( or a breakthrough) and turned to spiritual practices rather than conventional therapies or prescription medication. She has since moved to being a judge working mostly in criminal courts, but occasionally family courts, and is now also training as a rebirthing breathwork practitioner, and planning long term to open a retreat. She considers her work as a judge to be as spiritual as any role in the matrix, and always tries to approach her role without judgement and with compassion for everyone in court, defendants and victims alike, as well as trying to gently show colleagues, court staff and peers a new heart centred way of approaching criminal trials and sentencing.
In this episode, Sam and I discuss , who sees her leadership as a way of holding space. We explore what leading from within feels like and how it works, from the perspective of a woman judge in court. We highlight what becomes possible when one is drawing from multiple centres of intelligence - mind, heart and body, and how the capacity to hold space from these multidimensional perspectives as a leader, allows for emergence and transformation.
Thank you for listening to Women Rise. Sign up for my distribution list so you never miss an episode. Learn more about the Women Rise leadership program for women change-makers on my website. If you'd like to be considered to be interviewed on this podcast, please write me directly or take this survey to find out if you're a good fit.
Sam was a practising specialist litigation lawyer who started on the spiritual path about 10 years ago after having a breakdown ( or a breakthrough) and turned to spiritual practices rather than conventional therapies or prescription medication. She has since moved to being a judge working mostly in criminal courts, but occasionally family courts, and is now also training as a rebirthing breathwork practitioner, and planning long term to open a retreat. She considers her work as a judge to be as spiritual as any role in the matrix, and always tries to approach her role without judgement and with compassion for everyone in court, defendants and victims alike, as well as trying to gently show colleagues, court staff and peers a new heart centred way of approaching criminal trials and sentencing.
In this episode, Sam and I discuss , who sees her leadership as a way of holding space. We explore what leading from within feels like and how it works, from the perspective of a woman judge in court. We highlight what becomes possible when one is drawing from multiple centres of intelligence - mind, heart and body, and how the capacity to hold space from these multidimensional perspectives as a leader, allows for emergence and transformation.
Thank you for listening to Women Rise. Sign up for my distribution list so you never miss an episode. Learn more about the Women Rise leadership program for women change-makers on my website. If you'd like to be considered to be interviewed on this podcast, please write me directly or take this survey to find out if you're a good fit.
Claire
I'm delighted to introduce our guest today, Sam Presland. Sam was a practicing specialist litigation lawyer who started on the spiritual path about 10 years ago after having a breakdown, which calls a, a breakthrough and turned to spiritual practices rather than conventional therapies or prescription medication.
She has since moved to being a judge, working mostly in criminal courts, but occasionally family courts, and is now also training as a rebirthing breathwork practitioner, and planning long-term to appoint a retreat center. She considers her work as judge to be as spiritual as any role in the metrics, and always tries to approach her role without judgment and with compassion for everyone , defendants and victims alike, as well as trying to gently show colleagues, court staff, and peers a new heart-centered way of approaching criminal trials and sentencing. Sam, it's a delight to have you here. Thank you for accepting to be a guest on woman rights. Thank you so much.
Sam
Thank you so much, Claire. It's really, it's a pleasure. Thank you. I'm looking forward to talking with you.
Claire
Yes, I've been waiting for this dialogue too, and, as you know, this podcast highlights women who are using their emotional and spiritual intelligence and putting it in service to the systems that they work in, by doing what I call leading from within, they're actually transforming gently the systems by bringing a new intelligence. And, I'd love for you to start by telling me, how do you straddle these two worlds of your spiritual awakening and the work that you do as a judge, in England.
Sam
Yeah. Yeah. So it's in London and, the system is very Saturnian. It's an old system still, where it's top down authority , and everybody coming into the court, the defendants jury. , lawyers, everybody ultimately has a problem with authority, that's something that we're battling against at the moment. This very masculine, authority structure. All of the institutions are, you know, , sort of top down and I try to approach it much more collaboratively. So whatever I'm doing, I try to engage everybody who is in the courtroom in the process. Bring in that femininity, that ability to see everybody, as equal and that I'm just facilitating the trials and even sentencing. I'm facilitating it to get the best result rather than, , you know, it, it's sort of being me in charge. So it's quite similar to holding. In any spiritual work, you are facilitating people's healing.
You're not pushing them to heal, you're not punishing them, you're not attaching to it. Uh, you are just observing it and making sure that the space is safe, , for everybody and, and whatever's coming up. Um, and so with trials, I. Try to be very, very collaborative. So for example, with juries, we give them written legal directions now.
So I, the judge still decides the law. And we have to give them written legal directions. And I make a point of giving them sort of 20 minutes, 30 minutes actually in court to read the directions after I've read them to them so that they understand it properly, so that when the barristers, the lawyers are giving their closing speeches, the jury actually understand why they're emphasizing certain points. And it sounds like an obvious thing to. But nobody else has done it before, and I've sort of started saying this to my colleagues and my colleagues have gone, oh my goodness, that's such a good idea, because the jury don't really understand what you've just told them because you've just spoken to them like their school children, right?
They haven't had a chance to really think about it and understand it, and they're not engaged and they need to really be engaged so that they can listen to the speech.
Claire
Right. After all, they're the ones who have to come up with a decision eventually. So I'm curious, How do you navigate the tension between the authority of your colleagues who have a certain way of being and these new ideas that you're trying to implement, this new way of being within the workplace?
How do you have your innovative ideas be accepted, without pushing against? Or maybe you do have to push against sometimes
Sam
Yeah, you, you choose the right colleagues to speak to. Hmm. Um, and , you have to feel for those who are still very stuck in the system and those who are much more open and you just phrase it in a way that they can understand.
So I won't talk to them about, , wanting. To, , be collaborative. I will sort of approach them about wanting the jury to be properly engaged and paying attention so that you get the right decision. So , everything that you do, you speak to your audience, , because there's always a way that they will understand it.
Hmm. Uh, that it makes sense to them because ultimately even those that are very authoritarian and there are some judges who. Who really are very invested in getting convictions. You know, they think that these people have obviously done it. They're here, so , there should be a conviction and they should be punished.
And, you know, , they've sort of got that very cynical mindset. Um, and again, you just approach it from a way that they would understand it. You know, this is great because it engages the jury, so you are more likely to get a.
So you, you kind of feel , where there is an opening or how you can create a shift, yeah. , is this something that you feel , are you engaging as sort of a, Intuition.
I think it's, yeah. It's just using that intuition, isn't it?
It's just feeling, and , that's the spiritual work where , you are very aware of where people are at. Mm-hmm. Where they're at in their own journey, whether there's openings. Um, because the more that they start to open, then their stuff will come up. , and it's being acutely aware of that, that for a lot of my colleagues, , who are judges, because of the way you become a judge in the uk you are a lawyer first, and then you become a judge and the lawyers are very damaged people.
Uh, they've chosen a career where they have to be right. They're literally paid to be right, and they're paid to go in and have a fight. Um, so it attracts very closed, damaged, intelligent people and that wounding is, you have to be very aware of it. , and it's very interesting that in court the most damaged people are generally the lawyers.
In terms of , the psychic attack that you get from them, , misogyny is very apparent, , or the mother wounding,
Claire
You mean there's a lot of defensiveness ?
Sam
Yeah, the defensive, there's a lot of just wounding coming from wounding and so because they are then the people that become the judges, you have to be very aware of how you're dealing with colleagues, and where they might not want to start seeing their own wounding. Mm-hmm. , and it, it is very interesting. There's a couple of judges that I've started talking to you about, , having therapy for judges because of what we deal with every day, and it's very interesting because those judges who are enthusiastic about it are those that have already started to realize that there's some things that they want to talk. Right. , and those that aren't enthusiastic, it is because they're so scared to start talking about where the pain is.
Claire
Hmm. I'm curious, is there a difference in how these two kinds of judges are operating in court? Do you see them operate differently?
Sam
Yes. I mean the, the sort of more closed in judges are more likely to just take the view that, , the bad guys, the bad guys, , you know, there's obviously a lot of crime is committed because people have drug addictions, heroin addictions, , either because they're on drugs at the time or because they're trying to get money to fund their drug habit, and so they rob people or they commit burglaries or they're selling drugs themselves. And the thing that I always say and quite often say this when I'm sentencing people is nobody decides when they're asked at school what they want to be when they're 10. You know that classic question. What do you want to be when you grow up? Nobody, when they're asked that at the age of 10 says, I want to be a burglar because I'm funding my hero in a. So something has happened to them, um, and they're not addicted. They are in pain and they're self-medicating. Um, and again, books like Gabo Matte, uh, in the Realm of Hungry Ghosts on Addiction, there's a brilliant book, and I've given that to a couple of judges because they're already at that stage where they have that opening, that compassion.
Mm. They understand that these people are damaged. They're not bad people. Mm-hmm. They're just coming from their wounding and they're, they're trying to survive. And then there are other judges, as I've said, who are still so, sorting their wounds that they just say, well, they still know better and they shouldn't do it.
Claire
Yeah, . Thank you for giving me this sense of the different dynamics and I'm wondering, how was it for you to awaken, 10 years ago and to have that spiritual awakening, that realization,
Sam
yeah, it was a shock to suddenly really have that moment of truth and that awakening, that heart opening.
And the concept of something much bigger and unconditional love and that there's no separation. It was a huge shock. And then of course, suddenly becoming far more aware of other people's emotions. And I was still working as a lawyer and I would, I don't think in some ways, if I were being honest, that I have actually worked as a lawyer because I would instantly be in a room with clients who have had, , for example, had medical surgeries gone wrong, or had had really unpleasant injuries, you know, sort of become paraplegic or whatever. And rather than acting as a lawyer, I would act as a Therapist. So although my job was to, either win the trial, or get them as much money as possible in a settlement, I would always approach it from a, well, what do you need?
You know, what is going on in your life and holding space for them and, and you know, I'd have people who were bereaved or had lost partners. Pouring out their heart and about the guilt, you know, the survivor guilt and all of that. And again, I just very quickly after the awakening started effectively being a space holder. .
Claire
And that's how you described your role as a judge in the very beginning of this conversation was, I'm holding space, Yeah. And so there's a way in which you see your job as holding space? For what?
Sam
Well, for other people's stories, for their healing, for them to have realizations, for them to start to understand their own truth, I suppose.
You know, in, for example, with defendants, when I sentenced them, even if I have to send them to prison, I will say to them, look, you know, you need to, for example, if it's a domestic violence case or something like that, I will say, look, you know, you are not bad. You are just wounded. And when you're in prison, you need to access the groups about building better relationships and you need to look at your childhood, you're going to have to look at that, and it's going to be painful, but, I trust that you can do it. You know that you will be able to get through that because you don't want to have these relationships which are painful for you.
And if you do it right, if you hold that space so that you are not judging them and you say things to them like, you know, I, I want you to get better. I understand that this is painful. Often, they'll start having a release, an emotional release because they don't expect that
Claire
You're actually speaking to that part of them who can receive, right?
Sam
Yeah. So it's just using words as a way of healing, , it's more directed than a therapist because conventional therapy is,
Claire
And that's not your role
Sam
that's not my role exactly, no, I'm not there to say, okay, so tell me about X, Y, and Z, or why do you think this is much more directed? And it allows me to be quite confrontational in a way with people with where their emotion might be and, and to trigger them, because I could do it in a way where I just say, right, you've done this. You, this is the sentence. So, you have to go. And, and that's the sort of standard way, but that doesn't achieve anything because then they're just going to shut down. You know, they're, they're not going to listen and, and they're just going to think it's another authority figure.
Whereas I'm like, well, they have to listen to me. So, I have this position and I'm not a therapist. So, I can use that intuition, that ability to feel and understand where their wounding has come from, to point them in the right direction and do it in a way that is kind but very direct. And that is, I understand, is a, is a privilege and a gift and something I have to be very careful with.
You know, but often a good result is if people start crying in the right way. Does that make sense? If you send somebody to prison and they're crying, but they're not crying because they're going to prison, they're crying because suddenly they've been seen. . Then that's the result.
Claire
Yeah, so the impact that you're having - just by creating that connection and really letting them know that you see them underneath , what they're being convicted for, that you actually see the human being .
Sam
Yeah. And that there's a story as to how they got there. As I said, you know, nobody at the age of 10 says, I want to be a rapist, or I want to be a murderer. Or, you know, there's, I don't deal with murders, but you know, they, it just doesn't make sense. You've got to see that child. Cause people are still children, they're still caught in their wounds from when they're so young.
Claire
Yeah. Yeah. What is your personal experience? Of being so different in the court. And bringing this new way of being, how does it feel?
Sam
It's quite lonely. , And sometimes with some people, I have to be careful about, , coming across as to what they would call soft, , and so that, can be difficult. , and because I speak directly to defendants and I sometimes will say to defendants, you know, I'll ask them questions directly, particularly in sentencing. I had a judge at a court that I used to work at who was really unhappy about me doing that. He's like, you don't do that. That's not how the rules are. You can't just talk to the defendant. You know, very structured very unable to see that was the way forward that was going to get a better result.
But luckily the judge that I have at where I'm working now is, you know, much more on the program. I think he doesn't drink alcohol, so I think there's a story he hasn't drunk for about five years, so I think he has his own story and he's on the path in his own way and is a much more open energy. So he just trusts that I get on with things and that I'm treating people humanely, , and being sensible. , but . It can be quite lonely. , and it is an odd role , to be in, particularly when I go and do spiritual work, I am also then feel slightly odd.
Claire
So, what do you mean ?
Sam
So for example, recently I went and I had, I did a Cacao ceremony with some women in Brixton. And I didn't tell them what I did because I didn't really know them. I knew the woman running the ceremony and I feel, sometimes just like a fish out of water because my job is so harsh that it takes me a moment to drop, to sort of soften and feel safe, within a group of people who have a softer energy. And they notice as well that I have that sense of authority they pick up on as well, so I have to be very careful with it and managing that.
Claire
Right, so here you're really expressing this sort of a weird sensation of what I call, being a dual citizen. You feel different in court, you feel different in the spiritual circles. You're kind of this being straddling two worlds, which makes you quite effective in either world, but you don't quite belong in either. You also said to me that being a judge for you is a spiritual work, so… How do you bring your awareness of the energetic field when you are in the workplace, when you are dealing with, so much suffering.
Sam
Um, yeah, I think, I sort of, I open space in the room beforehand, so I try to go in clear, as much as possible, and try to keep the space clear as well. So I'm going in without any agendas. And just trusting , so there, there's a lot of trust that I bring to it that I will just say the right thing or do the right thing at the right moment and not be too anxious about performing and then managing those. Managing those energies, having that immediate awareness, if I'm suddenly feeling really defensive. For example, if lawyers are being misogynistic, they don't realize they're being misogynistic, but most men, funnily enough, don't like having a female judge because it triggers all of their mother wounding and they start throwing us at you and you are sat there going, my goodness.
That's, you know, and it, and it really affects female judges. Most of my colleagues have put on five or six kilos since starting work. They're padding themselves to defend themselves and so I have to be very acutely aware of that energy and go, just take a breath, see it not attached to it, understand where it's coming from, and just approach it with love, not allow it to trigger my own masculine wounding, because that's just as much there and, you know, just let it sort of smooth out and, and deal with it from a place of compassion, but yeah, boundaries.
Claire
Yeah. So you're bringing a lot here. Just in that answer, I just wanna reflect to you, you know, you're drawing from different centers of intelligence , right? You're actually holding space, so your mind is open. You're saying, I'm coming in without an agenda. My mind is open, and you are also bringing your capacity to be with all that energy. So there's this energetic container that you are able to create with your body, with your breath, and then you bring in compassion, you bring the heart energy.
So just there, you're offering a lot of keys of being a leader in that , new way, that more feminine way, which is not coming just with your IDs and your ways of singing and, throwing at the world, your vision and your way, , that you're actually being open to receive what's in the room, and, and, , being able to hold all this, you know, energies with your body, with your breathing and directing your heart energy, there is a lot of transformation that is able to happen through your way of being. Which is wonderful, which is beautiful. I mean, it's really that new paradigm of leadership that's coming through you in this example, you know, uniquely through you because you're in a very unique place to transform, that particular system that you work in. But that way of leading is actually awakening in so many. Men and women today, and obviously my interest is how we as women are embodying this new paradigm. Yeah, yeah. I'm just excited to hear it in action from you, it was so clear.
Sam
Thank you. I'm pleased. It's understandable. It's a lot to kind of, I suppose, process, but as we said when we were talking earlier, in some ways it's just like everything in my life set me up to do it without even it being a plan. It just mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Claire
Yeah. It's happening through you and yet, you know, your whole life has trained you to, to do it. It's the beauty of it.
Sam
Yeah. The divine plan is, yeah. Is perfect in it's strategy. So, yes, but it is interesting to see it, it, it is opening and it, you know, the days of people having awakenings and going off and becoming hermits, which is what I first wanted to do because I think that's what everybody does.
It's just like, oh my goodness, please don't make me go back. Please don't make me go back. Um, but it's, it's not, this era is consciousness anymore. And, and because that's how we shift and that's how we transform in consciousness everywhere.
Claire
Yeah. And the systems need this new way of being. It's not gonna happen on the top of mountain. It happens within the organizations, within the systems that we are here to transform.
Sam
Yeah. And just by, and not even fighting the system. Or being in there, being a deliberate disruptor, just by that soft, the energy transfers, people see how you are doing things.
They can feel that there's a different flow to it, that that's where the energy is moving and it's a gradual melting of the old system rather than a, a confrontational disruption of it. I think that has to be the feminine way . We need to allow it to melt and transform.
Claire
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There's almost a subversive energy to that soft way. I was interviewing a woman last week who talked about how she used to actually lead with humor in the most dramatic places. Actually, she works in humanitarian development.
Sam
It's just amazing that there are so many women now who are straddling both worlds and bringing that. And it's wonderful to have connected with you and this group of women because as I've said, it's quite lonely in a way, because you are in one world and not the other, the other and not the other. So that there are other women, as you say, working in the harshest environments and straddling the worlds. It is amazing and it's wonderful to sort of connect with others. So thank you
Claire
Thank you, Sam, as you just said, the illusion of being alone is such a pervasive, pain for women like you who are these organizational shamans, as I described them. Um, and part of my message here is to remind all of us that we are not alone. There are many of us across disciplines, across the world who are doing work, and it is possible to come together and to share our experience, to share our pains, to share our joy, and to feel connect.
Sam
Thank you very much. I am so grateful for having made a connection with you.
Claire
Thank you, Sam.
Sam
Thank you. Bye