Celebrating Each Person's Uniqueness - With Jenn Grindeland

Does your organization struggle with team tension and feeling like you're not on the same page? Jenn has a Bachelor's degree in Psychology, a Master's degree in Organizational Leadership, and experience as a yoga and mindfulness teacher. With this background, she teaches teams leadership and communication skills that are thoughtfully designed to support equity for and inclusion of neurodivergent and invisibly disabled employees. It might appear on the outside that this doesn't apply to you, but Jenn shares that 15-30% of the U.S. workforce is neurodivergent or invisibly disabled, so you're guaranteed to have employees on your team who are silently struggling. 

In this conversation, we explore what becomes possible as a team leader when we take the time to understand and celebrate each team member's background and experiences. We discuss how leading from this vantage point allows for a working environment where everyone feels safe and respected, valued, and supported and how that provides, in turn, opportunities for everyone to contribute and grow.

Creating a more inclusive workplace helps those with hidden differences and everyone in the organization work more cohesively. Download a free inclusive communication checklist for listeners at www.theworkingwell.us/womenrise.
Contact Jenn directly at: jenn@theworkingwell.us or find her on LinkedIn

Thank you for listening to Women Rise. Sign up for my distribution list so you never miss an episode. Learn more about the Women Rise leadership program for women change-makers on my website. If you'd like to be considered to be interviewed on this podcast, please write me directly or take this survey to find out if you're a good fit.

Transcript

Claire

My guest today is Jenn Grindeland. Jenn has degrees in psychology and in organizational leadership. She’s also experienced as a yoga and mindfulness teacher. With this background, she teaches teams, leadership, and communication skills that are designed to support equity and inclusion of neurodivergent and invisibly disabled employees. Jenn, welcome to the Women Rise Podcast. I am delighted to have you as my guest. 

Jenn

Thank you, Claire. Me too. I'm really looking forward to what we're going to talk about today and how that's going to mix together your expertise and mine. 

 Claire 

Yeah. So, let's start by you telling us a little bit more about you. What animates you in doing what you do? 

 Jenn

 Yeah. Well, you kind of covered the basics with the introductions, so thank you for that.

A little bit more about me. I got into this work based on my previous experience in the workforce and combined that with my education. So, in the past, I had a couple of brain injuries and two of them were while I was working for an employer as part of a team. And that experience really opened up my eyes to how it's uncommon for people to be aware of what to do with employees who have invisible disabilities. And so I started speaking with other friends and coworkers that I knew who had disabilities and asking them about their experience, and they had very similar stories to mine, whereas their coworkers and supervisors just didn't really know what to do with their needs and it didn't feel comfortable.

To share their needs. And so that's why I created this business, is to teach teams how to support each other when it comes to invisible disabilities and hidden differences. 

Claire

You had a brain injury after which your brain started to behave differently and you noticed that you had different needs in the workplace. Did it happen Suddenly Or incrementally?  

Jenn

Yes. It’s immediately. My first brain injury was actually when I was 15. So, I had already figured out how to navigate the world and really mask my symptoms and mask my needs in order to fit in by the time I was a working professional and out of school. And then, when I was working, I had a brain injury,  and then six months later I had another one. And so, what, what that looked like for me specifically, everybody's brain is so different and when we injure it, it's a million different ways that could look. Um, but for me that looked like a lot of headaches.

I acquired a visual disorder where I could not read because my eyes decided not to work together anymore and become independent from one another. And so it was really difficult for me to read and, when I did try to read or look at a screen or any sort of visual stimulation, so like flashing lights or movement that caused an immediate headache and nausea, in my body. And so it made work incredibly difficult. 

Claire

Did you feel that you could explain to your employer what was happening to you?  

Jenn

I had a really positive relationship with my team and at the beginning of my recovery journey, I did feel comfortable sharing that. But the thing with brain injuries, and especially if you've had them before, recovery can look different for everybody in terms of the length of time. And so for me, by the end of the six months after the first injury, while I was working, I still wasn't back full-time. I was part-time and then I got injured again.

And so that process reset and was longer the second time because I had already, you know, been in recovery and it wasn’t injured from a fully healed brain, but an already injured brain. So, what's difficult when it comes to working with other people when you have this invisible disability is that it's hard to continue to be patient on the other side when you can't really see what someone else is going through.

Claire

Right. 

Jenn

And I've found this story time and again, the more people I talk to, is that people are really understanding and caring and empathetic for the first four to six weeks, I would say. And then after that, they start to wonder, are you still having symptoms? Because it's not really a topic of conversation all the time anymore because it's kind of, you know, you kind of moved past the initial shock stages and so they start to think that you're okay and you're normal. 

And in my case, I wasn't. I wasn't even close. And there's, you know, there's no normal really after a brain injury, you're never going to return back to how you originally were. Um, which in the context of this conversation we would refer to as neurotypical, a brain that is what's seen as common or normal. Really, statistics show that it's not more common than neurodivergent. 

Claire 

So, tell me a little bit more about this, because obviously, you've learned a lot through your journey of being neurodivergent. And so, tell me more about this term and about the statistics around this term.

Jenn

I learned so much after this journey began and I was so interested to see how common this is. Um, so I'll start with the overall term neurodiversity. Neurodiversity explains the differences in the ways that our brain works and thinks and relates to the world, and it's really just differences in the brain.

So honestly, we could argue that we're all neuro-diverse from one another and no two brains are the same, so neuro-divergent specifically refers to conditions that the brain operates in, the way that the brain functions that we might refer to as A D H D or autism or dyslexia or brain injury or, you know, there's a multitude of diagnoses that fall into this category.

But diagnoses are a really interesting thing because they are really vague and some doctors might diagnose someone, let's say, for example, A D H D, while another doctor might not, because it's not as simple as taking a blood test and it's showing up on a blood panel. , because it's the way that the brain works.

And I heard a person yesterday explain the word neuro-divergent as neuro-distinct. He wanted to use that word instead, which I really like and I think I might start using it because he showed that as divergent, the word divergent means to separate. And distinct means something different. And we might think distinct actually means really something cool.

And so that's kind of a great way to explain neurodiversity is that it's the differences in the ways that our brain operates. And some are different than others of what we might look at as typical, but really, it's very common and there are different studies that show between 15 to 30% of the US population has an invisible disability or is neuro-divergent.

Claire

So, tell me more about invisible disability. What do you mean by that? 

Jenn

So invisible disability covers a little bit more than neurodiversity it. For this, I like to say this covers things like migraines or chronic illnesses like fibromyalgia. Yeah. Or POTS syndrome 

Claire

Endometriosis…

Jenn

Yes. So the Americans with Disability Act explains, defines the word disability as a medical condition that impacts your daily living functions. And so that's the definition of a chronic condition that it impacts your daily functions. Now it becomes a disability when it impacts your daily functions in a way that makes your daily functions really difficult and, does not operate normally we can say. 

Claire

So you said that there are 15 to 30% of people that are neurodivergent or have invisible disabilities in the workplace? At least in America.

Jenn

Mm-hmm. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wish I knew the statistics in France for you, but I do not. , 

Claire

I'm curious now, I'm going to look into it and I'll tell you, Yeah. Tell me how you detect this then if it's invisible and people don't talk about their neurodivergence. 

Jenn

A lot of people try to hide it because there's a lot of shame that's attached to it. That you're different you're supposed to get better.

Claire

That's the thing, right? 

Jenn

Yeah. And that's the thing. If we look at this as a neuro-distinct or a difference in the brain, there is no getting better. It's just different. And so, we have to look at it as how we go into the workplace and recognize and acknowledge that everybody is different.

And that's actually a point of celebration because research shows that the more unique perspectives we have on our team, the better we perform. So, we don't want to quote and quote cure. There is no cure for these things. It's something to celebrate and, want to have on your team. And so, what I see oftentimes is that I'll talk to companies and they'll say, oh, well how do we know we have someone on our team like this? 

Or, we don't have anyone on our team like that because no one's ever said anything, and that's the number one indicator for me that this actually is a problem, is more of a problem because you can't support people on your team in these ways if they don't feel comfortable enough to tell you that they need support.

And so if you don't know that they need it, it, that's, that's the number one problem. 

Claire

So, if I'm a manager and I want to find out if they are, but I don't want to get into someone's privacy, I don't, you know, I'm not going to test them if they're neuro-divergent. What do I need to do?  what would you give me as homework?

Jenn

Yeah. Great question. I love that question. So, we can't directly ask people no. To protect their privacy. We can't do that, and we don't need to. What we need to do is, create an expectation and a cultural norm that no matter who you are, you can get the accommodations or whatever it is.

I don't really like using the word accommodations, but you can have access to what you need to thrive in the business, and you can ask for it. Yes. So that's how we find out. And it doesn't matter to us as a manager; it does not matter what a diagnosis is if someone even has one. There's also a really, sometimes, it's really hard to get access to a diagnosis.

So someone who might have A D H D, a lot of women actually get diagnosed with it, a lot later in life, um, for a variety of reasons. But that's a great example of how, as women, you know, we can acknowledge that we might need something that's not provided to us and we can ask for it. And as a manager, we can respect those wishes because everybody is going to thrive if we give them what they need  to thrive, um, to be really successful, such as flexible work schedules or handing out the meeting agenda in advance, you know, that's really going to help neuro-distinct people. It's also really going to help everybody. 

Claire

Introverts, for example. Yes. Introverts like to read and prepare before they are in a meeting, and that's always the case that they don't get to, you know, express as much. Not because they didn't have anything to say, but just because they weren't.

Jenn

Yeah. Totally. And a lot of people's brains really do well with that extra time to process.  

Claire

So what are, the most common challenges that managers encounter that make them interested in your work?

Jenn

Yeah. Manifests in about five different ways that I commonly see the ways that I know that I can help with by teaching this material. And the first one is the unnerving feeling that micromanaging is the only way to get stuff done. That happens a lot. And then having disengaged or defensive employees, having employees express that their needs aren't being prioritized.

Employees performing at lower productivity levels than expected or quiet quitting, which can really happen a lot if they're forced to work in a work style that doesn't work for their brains. And then lastly, the constant cycle of surprise resignations, followed by replacement, hiring, and onboarding.

So, these are five challenges. A manager may be experiencing all of them. They may be experiencing one or a few. And oftentimes, you can connect it back to the team culture and not understanding our employees fully. And being aware of hidden differences and your team is a great place to start with that.

Claire

So as a manager, if I become interested in the differences in my team, the unique skills and gifts that everyone has. What's in it for me? What does it create for the well-being and the well-functioning of my projects? 

Jenn

Yeah. That's such a great question. So what really helps is to start the conversation of how we can support our employees to be as productive and cohesive as possible. So this reduces the micromanaging, and it creates trust within our team to know that everyone's going to do the job that they were hired to do or asked to do.

And it also creates this culture of accepting self-advocacy. So, an employee would feel comfortable asking for what they need if they don't have everything they need to complete their work on time or complete a project if they're missing something or if they need someone else to help. It creates this culture of being able to ask for that and know that you'll receive it.

Claire

As you're speaking, I'm feeling into how it feels to work in a team like that, and something in my body relaxes. Yeah. Because it feels like there's a level of trust that you're creating. There's a bonding that you're creating. And I can only imagine that this quality in the team by itself can be so beneficial for the whole team and for the well-being of the company. It makes total, total sense to me. 

 Jenn

Yeah, it really helps the entire company, even if they, say, it's a team of a hundred, and they have the lower percentage rate, they have 15% of their team who is neuro-divergent or has invisible disabilities. That other 85% of the organization will get so much out of this culture. 

 Claire

Yeah. That's what I'm feeling into. It creates a connection. More flow. Mm-hmm.  That you don't have, on one side, “those that are different” and on the other, “us productive people.” And so I'm wondering, what's your vision 20 years from now once this quite unknown phenomenon of neurodivergence in the workplace comes to the forefront?  And you are definitely one of those people that are creating awareness around it.  Let's, imagine that in 20 years, this is something that has been embedded in the workplace. And everybody is aware of that, and we're working together.  What's possible when neurodiversity is just the way things are? 

Jenn

I'm so excited that you asked that question. No one's ever asked me that before, but that doesn't mean I haven't thought about it. 

Yeah, my vision is a norm where workplaces are so inclusive and welcoming to different perspectives, and their employees claim ownership of their unique experience that a neurodivergent or invisibly disabled or even chronically ill person will feel confident going into any workplace for a job, knowing that they will be supported and accepted and even celebrated.

That is my vision because right now, a lot of people in those categories are really nervous about starting new jobs, and they leave a lot of the time. The unemployment rate is really high for these populations because they feel so unsupported. So, my vision is that the unemployment rate drops, and there's a felt sense of confidence amongst communities of people to be celebrated and accepted in their work. 

 Claire

Hmm. This touches me a lot because, as you know, I work with women leaders who tend to hide some of their gifts. Because they don't feel safe to deploy them in their workplace. And often, they see these gifts as hindrances. These can be qualities of high intuition, sensitivity emotionality, and so what I teach them is that these qualities can actually enhance their leadership and empower them to have more impact and influence in their work.

And my message to them is that their gift makes them a unique leader. And so, in a way, we're doing the same work, Jenn. Each person is unique, and, as managers and leaders, the more we can see our employee’s unique gifts, the more we can deploy our unique gifts. 

And what's amazing about recognizing one’s uniqueness - our own and the uniqueness of others is that this is what allows us as human beings to blossom and to give the best of us ourselves. So, the more I can see uniqueness in each person in my team as a manager or leader, the more I can deploy my unique gifts the better work we can do together, and that's what creates amazing teams in a workplace. 

Jenn

Yeah, that's so beautiful what you share, what you shared. It is really about celebrating everyone's uniqueness. And we are doing the same work, just taking it from different approaches. And a lot of other leadership and business and executive coaches that I know, we all are doing the same work from different perspectives. So the overall messages that we're working together to celebrate the unique differences amongst everyone in the world, really, and, and we want to bring it to that level. We are just creating this cultural norm where being yourself is okay. 

Claire 

It's actually celebrated, and it's needed. Right? I mean, I can't be, Jenn, I want to be Claire and there's so much that I can do that you can't or that you can do that I can't.

And that's perfect. That's why it's interesting. And also, the whole relationship to competition, comparing each other or, you know, elbowing doesn't have its place anymore because, , each person has unique gifts. 

Jenn

Yeah. And even in my journey as a business owner, that has been a huge opportunity to embrace that and see other people who are doing similar businesses to mine that it's exciting not to see them as competition but see them as allies. 

Claire

Exactly. 

Jenn

And that we all have our unique perspectives to give toward the common goal. 

Claire

And as a leader and as a manager, I want to be curious about my employees. It will make my work more exciting when I consider each person unique. And my job, then, is to help foster that uniqueness, to water the seeds of that uniqueness, and to allow for each person in my team to blossom, and that's what's going to create an organization that functions like a beehive, a place in which the whole becomes better than the sum of its individuals.

Jenn

Yeah, I can really relate to that, specifically when it comes to when I started my business. Because what I am doing is so unique and not well known, I often have to explain what it even means. 

There was a lot of self-doubt in that, in creating it. But every time someone told me how great they thought my unique perspective was, it created more and more confidence in me to create this positive change in the world. And so that's, I think, such a great example of what that can look like in an organization if not only supervisors but also peers are celebrating the contributions and experiences of totally other team members. Yeah, that can provide so much confidence and create collaboration within the team. And they can, you know, really, my goal is that the organizations can use that collaboration and cohesiveness to create a positive impact in their community and do good in the world.

And so, my target is to work with organizations who want to do good in the world or who already are doing good in the world, and how can we make that more impactful? 

Claire

Yes, yes. 

Jenn

More space to do more of it. 

Claire

Totally. And just to go back to your story, which is  - the result of your story is what you're doing right now. I mean, look at this. How amazing is that? You know, you could be in a victim story. Poor me, I don't fit in. And obviously, you are not like that, you know, you turned your fate into destiny. And you're not working in an organization anymore.

However, you could still be in the workplace. You could be one of those employees whose managers you're coaching now, and imagine what you're giving them when these people are empowered to shift from their victim story from, you know, being ashamed, feeling that they don't fit in. Imagine what the gift is for them to be able to shift into that completely different story where they're empowered to give their gifts, and this changes the world. I mean, literally, it does. 

Jenn 

Yeah. 

Claire

And it's huge what you're doing. 

Jenn

Thank, thank you. You're making me smile so much. Yeah. I won't say I never felt like a victim, but it was hard. 

Claire

Well, of course, it was hard. That's part of it. If it hadn't been hard, you wouldn't be where you are now. 

Jenn

Right. And I move into this place where I am helping other people have a better experience than I has been such an opportunity for healing for me and forgiving my past experience and the people who were involved in that and understanding their perspective, you know, those managers and peers who didn't treat me as I would've liked. Um, and now I'm working with those people and getting into their experience and learning that they really, honestly are very good people, and they don't know any better.

It's so common that people are promoted into managerial roles and then not taught the skills to lead their teams really well. And that is a big part of what I teach when I work with teams is that manager and leader are not the same words. 

Claire

Do you want to tell me a little more about this and what's the difference, and what's your focus when you work with teams? 

Jenn

Yeah. So, in my master's program in organizational leadership, this was the core of what we talked about on a daily basis was that management is not synonymous with leadership. They are not the same. Um, And, if you look at, you know, an MBA program, that's, that's kind of where you're focused on management. 

Whereas the master's in organizational leadership focuses on creating a relationship where you inspire others to work together towards a common goal. Whereas management the definition of management is ensuring daily operations are completed in order to maintain efficiency and effectiveness in your team.

So while someone in a position of authority is often in a managerial role, they might not be leading their teams. So, teaching those leadership skills of how can we do management and leadership together, how can we manage the work being done? Make sure that everything is being done efficiently.

And inspire our team and create this positive relationship where we're working together towards a goal we curate together. 

Claire

Yeah. And this is where your work makes a difference. 

Jenn

Yeah. So how to inspire our teams? How to bring them together. Within the, keep in the back of your mind the idea that everyone is different and there might be people on your team who identify as neuro-divergent or have visible disabilities or chronic illness.

And I think that is a big part of helping to bring awareness to the differences between every employee. 

Claire

Yeah. Is there any other angle you want to bring that we haven't touched yet? In terms of what you want people to remember from this conversation?

Jenn

Yeah, that's a good question. I want people to remember that if you're listening to this and you're not in a managerial role, that does not mean you can't be a leader. So, the way I just described the difference between management and leadership opens up the door to inviting anybody in an organization to be a leader.

So, if you just started and you're in an entry-level position, You can still have a positive relationship with people that inspires collective change and be a leader, and that also starts with yourself. You can advocate for yourself in what you need and communicate kindly and effectively with your peers.

And I also teach energy management so that we can look at our, to-do lists and figure out what we can accomplish throughout the day and how to prioritize. And that also ties directly into self-advocacy. So asking for help if we can't, if we really can't get everything on our list done or even realizing, oh, I can do all of this and have extra time, what else can?

Do to help the team and our mission. So, the main point I'm getting at is that if you're listening and you are not a manager, this work still applies to you. And I work with managers and employees alike on these topics because I find it very valuable that everybody in the organization has the same skills and awareness on these topics.

Claire

Do you want to tell us about the best way to get in touch with you? 

Jenn

Yeah, there are two ways people can get in touch with me. Well, really, three, but I'll say the main one would be to look at my website so that you can poke around and see if what I'm talking about resonates with you. And the website is www.theworkingwell.us
and then someone can connect with me on LinkedIn, either through my name directly or through the Working Well page. And again, my name's Jenn Grindeland, or I think it's Jennifer on LinkedIn. 

Lastly, they can email me on my website. It's Jenn@theworkingwell.us

Download a free inclusive communication checklist for listeners at www.theworkingwell.us/womenrise.

Claire

Jenn, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for what you're doing. I'm so excited that you're doing it. I am grateful. 

Jenn

Thank you, Claire. This was such a lovely conversation. I appreciate you having me on. Thank you.