Leading in Multicultural Contexts, with Dr. Tess Goodliffe.

 Dr. Tess Goodliffe has worked in many countries in Europe, Asia, and Africa, including the Gulf, where she was particularly interested in empowering young women in the workplace and understanding multicultural working contexts. In this conversation, we discuss how leadership isn't simply about being in charge but about finding a purpose and supporting others to achieve that purpose while also building trust, respect, and creating a safe space for everyone to contribute. 

Tess stressed the significance of seeing people as individuals in multicultural contexts rather than as labels or stereotypes. She emphasised the importance of connecting with others through one-on-one conversations, being reliable, consistent, and fair, and using humor to create a positive working environment while being mindful of cultural differences  and valuing everyone's contributions. 

We discussed the importance of cultural sensitivity, intuition, and emotional intelligence in leadership, as well as the significance of owning one's sensitivity and trusting one's instincts, staying true to oneself, and not struggle so hard to please others.

Overall, our conversation highlighted the importance of creating an inclusive, multi-cultural environment where all team members feel valued and respected for their unique contribution. 

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Transcript

Claire

My guest today is Dr. Tess Goodliffe. Tess has over 35 years of experience in education. She has worked in many countries in Europe, Asia, Africa. She spent a significant amount of time in the Arabian Gulf working as a deputy C E O for technical affairs of the Oman Academy accreditation. During her time in the Gulf, she was particularly interested in empowering young women in the workplace and understanding multicultural working contexts. Tess, it's a delight to have you here. Welcome to the Women Rise Podcast.

Tess

Thank you. It's my pleasure. 

Claire

Tess, let's start at the beginning. Where are you based? 

Tess

Okay, well, I'm currently based in France, but for many years I've been working around the world in education. Starting off in France, well, in fact, starting off in Turkey and then in Italy and France and in Tokyo and quite a few places around the world in various roles, both as a teacher, as a trainer, and from about 2007 I was working in the Gulf in quality in education, so, I've worked in higher education as well, working with a variety of people in a variety of contexts and trying to learn to bring out the best in people in order to achieve the organizational goals and to help them develop as individual.

Claire

 We met in Oman. And the reason why I wanted to interview you in this podcast is that I knew you are a natural leader from the heart. I've always seen that about you. So, tell me, you started off as a teacher and you're a natural leader, but, did you always know you were a leader? 

Tess

I'm not sure that I've always known I'm a leader. I've got a loud voice and I'm quite assertive, and things don't frighten me in groups. I'm quite confident and I think that that can sometimes be misinterpreted, but I think when it comes to leadership, it's about finding a purpose and supporting those around you to achieve that purpose. And for me, that's leadership. It's about having a common goal. And it's not about being the person in the velvet seat at the top of the room.

It's about being the person who's in the team, who's motivating people, who's encouraging people to achieve what it is that you are there to do. So, I think my leadership has certainly evolved. I mean, when I look at myself, you know, in the old days I used to run summer schools and we have students from all over the world coming to the UK running summer schools.

I think I was dreadful as a manager and a leader because I was an awful people pleaser in the way that I just wanted to do the right thing so that people liked me. And then you kind of learn to have confidence in yourself. It's not that you stop wanting people to like you per se, but you realize that that's actually not why you are there.

And so you kind of part that in order to be able to look at the bigger picture and to listen a bit more, to kind of engage with others and worry less about your own ego, what it is you are trying to achieve, and I think when you are working in international contexts and different cultures, I think that really helps you kind of see what's happening around you and to really tune in to what makes those cultures and those contexts stick, so, you can bring whatever skills you have to make things work, depending on what it is you're trying to achieve. I'm not sure if that makes sense. 

Claire

Yes. You said a few things. One is, you mentioned letting go of having to please everybody and rather, serve a purpose.

Tess

Yes. 

Claire

And there is a way in which as a leader, you also want to be able to enroll people around your purpose. And so, you have a vision And people are not necessarily going to like you, but you want them to trust you and to trust that your vision is serving the common purpose.

Tess

Yeah. But I think you have to be careful, in some context of charismatic leadership whereby people will follow you, whatever you say or do because they bought into a charismatic leadership. It has a time, a place, and a context, but in many scenarios it's not always helpful. And when you are working in an environment where you are trying to achieve something.

So, for us, you know, for one of my jobs was working in higher education in a college. So, you're trying to run a department, you're trying to run a number of departments and you want, the students need to be recognized and met. So, you need to get everybody on board to do that, and you need to find ways of getting around people around the table, especially when you're working with academics who are very bright and know their stuff and you need to get them on board saying, what can you bring to this scenario? So I think, it's about, sort of parking some of the stuff that kind of goes with the title of leader, you know, Joan Collins and Shoulder Pads, you know, but it's about, getting people on board to see what it is you're trying to achieve.

And when you are working in education, you stop focusing on yourself and you start focusing on the students on those that are actually benefiting from the education. I think that also helps people because it's not about you, it's not about your ego, but it's about getting students to where they need to be and then later, of course, working in quality, trying to get a quality system off the ground in a country that had only recently opened its first university relatively. 

So, you know, how do you get people from many different cultures because they've obviously had to use people from various cultures to drive the higher education system forward. So, it's about looking at the greater good, looking at what we are there for, and knowing that you have a certain amount of power.

It's not always about being the loudest voice in the room. But it's not being frightened to put your views forward and, by still being respectful, but saying what you need to say and creating a safe space for other people to also contribute. 

Claire

One thing that I noticed about you very early is that you have this gift of seeing people's uniqueness. There's a way in which you see people. Do you know that about you? Do you use it in your leadership? 

Tess

I do, I know about it. I do cherish people. I'm a very sociable person and I really like people with a capital B. I do enjoy people's company and I do like engaging with people on a one-to-one basis. And when it comes to multicultural context, it's very easy to see people with a label before you see them as an individual. So, you know, you have colleagues from South Asia, colleagues from North Africa, colleagues from the Gulf. So they kind of come with a label, with a stereotype that we need to look through. And you have to forget that this person, it's not about where they're going to come from because they've got a lot of baggage with them. And a way of dealing with things, but it's about seeing them as who they are, their names, what they're coming to the table with.

And yes, I do like looking people in the eye and finding out a lot more about them. 

Claire

How do you do that? How do you find out more about them? is there a way that you engage that allows you to feel them? 

Tess

I think it's about talking to them. There's a practice in Japan that I've always really, appreciated when we used to live in Tokyo, and that was before they had a major meeting, the management staff that we were familiar with, would bring everybody into their office and talk to them on a one-to-one before you go into the group meeting.

So, you get everybody's angle, you find out what everybody's talking about. It's not about coercion, but it's to really kind of find out what's going on behind the scenes. And I think it's that one-to-one. And also being reliable and being consistent and being fair. People have to trust you if you want them to tell you about themselves and what they're coming to the table with. 

And if they feel that you are going to be manipulative or use that information for anything other than the greater good, I think you have to be very careful about the way you deal with people. People are, you know, sometimes they're a bit suspicious.

If you've got a label that says you're a manager or a leader in some way, then you know what's in it for you. So, you have to be careful not to abuse that trust. And I think the way to talk to people is by listening and going beyond the surface. It's not just what did you do last night? But finding out a little bit about them and what their vision is and how they feel they fit in. I think those conversations around the water cooler are really important. 

Claire 

Mm-hmm. Well, you create connection. Yes. Human beings have a very good detector for what's false, right? 

Tess. 

Yes. 

Claire

It's such a finely tuned instrument that we have. And sometimes in the workplace people tend to ignore that finely tuned instrument just to get by or to fit in. 

Tess

Yeah. Well, that's about power structure as well. Because, you know, there is  a problem when you get a group of people together sometimes, nobody wants to speak out of turn, if they know that someone has some sort of power over them or information about them , they're not quite sure where that's going to go. 

And, I think about how people feel the need to be accepted by the group and by the team, but also a little wary of the leadership if the leadership is not being fair and consistent and bringing everybody on board.

There's a degree of distrust so I think, it's how you treat a team and a group of people. And I've worked with big teams and small teams and the principles are the same. It's about, letting people know what it is they're expected to do, giving them support to achieve what they want to do, and being there when things aren't always going. 

 I think , it's really important, this idea that you can't do anything wrong.That you need to be able to, you know, this is what you're expected to do, and if you can't talk about the challenges you are facing with the team or with the leadership, then you are never going to achieve , the global purpose that you're trying to get to.  

Claire

You're talking to that capacity to create a safe container in your team?

Yes, absolutely. And working, one of the areas that I was very involved with, working for a government organization, you'll find that there are a lot of young women who go to apply for government organizations because they don't necessarily want to work in the private sector. So you've got a lot of young women who have been university educated and have been waiting maybe at home for four years for a government job, and then they come into a government job and they feel well, you know, now I have a secure position and now I'm going to, you know, live my life. And it's about kind of igniting their interest in what they're doing and to sort of tap into some kind of passion, about what it is we are trying to do. And that, you know, looking for opportunities for young women to work together. 

Traditionally in the kind of cultures I've been working in, when you put young men and young women in the room together, the young women will defer to young men, you have to go against years and years of cultural environment in order to be able to say to them, go on, you can speak up. Go on, off you go and give a presentation. So, you have to kind of manage it in a very different way to be able to empower young women. And I can't be a role model because, I'm a person from another culture.

I mean, I can be a role woman as a woman, but it's about identifying role models to come in. It's about working with young women together. And finding out a way of how do you fit in this organization? How can you support the goals of this organization? How can you feel nurtured and empowered to develop all the skills that are going to be useful just outside the job?

You know, it's about playing a role in the bigger society and it's about going beyond the expectations of their society. So, understanding that and understanding what makes communities is really important in order to get everybody to contribute and feel valued. 

Claire

I can hear the passion in your voice when you speak about this particular role that you took on. And I can imagine how empowering, and even, it must have been surprising for them. To be, looked at from a different angle, probably for the first time in their life. So I'm wondering, if you encountered any resistance, how was it?

Tess

The resistance was certainly there because they were thinking, well, you know, for some of them, they just wanted to come to work and you know, I'll be here from eight till three or whatever the working hours were, and here's my job description, and that's what I'm going to do. I'm behind a computer, I'm in an air-conditioned office, you know, and then you kind of explore well, you know, are you not bored?

Would you not like to be doing something a bit more? Well, yes, but I'm not going to do any more hours. But how can we make your daily life a bit more enriching? What is it you'd like to know about? And obviously things like, you know, looking for opportunities for them to sit with other people in the organization to find out what they do.

But, but there is a resistance for this. You know. But why should I go? Why should I go beyond what I'm expected to do? Well, but it's about making it worthwhile and giving you a reason to wake up in the morning, which isn't just about sitting in front of your computer and getting your monthly salary.

But you know what more, and I think it's about understanding a context. One of the things I noticed slightly off piece. But, when you go to gatherings and you talk to people, you know, very often in the Western cultures, we'll say, what do you do? What's your job? What's your line of work? Whereas there, in the cultures that I was working, it was, well, who's your tribe? And, who's your father and how many children do you have? And how do you fit into this sort of social construct around us, rather than, what's your job? 

And that's both, I would say, for men and for women. And it's what makes you, you. And it's not necessarily your job. Surveys that have been carried on out have found that family religion, society tribe come way up before your occupation and your job.

So if you are being brought up in a culture, that has that attitude towards occupation and job, then you have to put it in a frame that makes people think, what is this doing for me as an individual? What is this doing to my nurturing my nourishment? And that's how you have to approach it because the corporate speak isn't really going to wash.

Claire

When you approach it in the way that makes sense to these women, getting them to become more curious, to be more interested in their job, that is actually good for the team and for the common vision.

Tess

Yeah. I think so. And, getting them, they're not going to sit down and read an article about transformation. They're not going to sit down and look at something on change management. But if you present it in a way, you know, we are going to be doing this together as a team. Could you do a little bit of this research?

Could you do a bit of this? Let's bring it together and find out what it is we can bring to the table. And if you take responsibility, it's a very sharing community, the communities that we worked in, and it's very collegial. So, if you are getting people to come to the table and you know that you are bringing something together that everybody will benefit from, so whether it's a presentation on a particular way of working, a presentation on skills that you need in the workplace.

Then, if you go away and give everybody a little something to work on, to bring to the table, then there's a sense of you are nourishing everybody and not just yourself. And we all know that you learn so much better if you're preparing to teach others. So, I think if you create it in that way, if you create that scenario, I think it can be very helpful.

But for everybody concerned, and particularly the individual, that's presenting, because I think they're trying to create a space that means they're sharing what they've learned with other people who are genuinely engaged and interested. 

Claire

I'm going to shift a little bit topic here, cause I'm thinking about you, Tess. I know that you are also a hard worker and you worked a lot when in you were in these positions, how did you deal with your own, energy? How did you nurture yourself?

Tess

That is is a very interesting question because, there's kind of a competition isn't there sometimes? you know, who can clock up the most hours and who can be most present? 

In terms of my own nurturing, I mean, while I was there, I did do a PhD while I was in the workplace and because I was curious, not because I wanted a title, but because I wanted to use what I was learning in a very concrete way. 

For my own nurturing, I have an incredibly supportive husband who has been there for me every step of the way. And also, as you know, Claire, to some extent, the lifestyle that we live in, in that part of the world, we have a lot of support that frees us up to do things that perhaps we wouldn't be able to do in other contexts.

So, I had a lot of support. To be able to do that. And in terms of my own nurturing, I mean, you know, I've, I've always, um, meditated, I've always found time to reflect. I'm quite creative. But also, we had a band, so there was lots of music stuff. 

So, to some extent you may argue it's a distraction. But it's also appealing to another side of you, you know, that creative zany that energy when you're in a job that's quite serious and has responsibility. I think it's really important to kind of, you know, get to that right side of your brain and, get creative, but I was lucky to have the support around me that allowed me to do the job I was doing. I don't think that can be denied, but yeah, there's a little bit of, um, schizophrenia involved. 

So you have this kind of quite sensible part of me, and then occasionally, you'd cross paths while you're up on stage when you're in a PVC mini dress and it's sort of mm-hmm, Somebody who works in the Ministry of Higher Education wondering what you're doing up on stage.

So there are moments, but I think it's really important to channel that creativity to channel the fun side. Because I think if you can't, if you can't laugh, if you can't be with others, and it's that community thing again, you know, being with a group, being with a team for fun, I think that also nurtures your soul.

Claire

You used the word schizophrenia. Do you find that there was a sharp difference between the Tess at work and the Tess that I've met as friends in Oman. Did you feel that you had to push her or hide her, or how did you…

Tess

No, I channeled her. Is that a good way to say it? I channeled her because I was doing quite a lot of presentations and training, and I use quite a lot of humor when I'm doing training and presentations, because I think it's really important that people relax because we all know the effective filter goes up when people are stressed. So if you can try and create an environment where people are relaxed and receptive, your training activities are going to be so much more successful. I didn't wear PVC, I didn't sing into the microphone, but I did inject a little bit of humor because ultimately there's not a firewall between the two sides.

There's always going to be leeching one way or the other. But I think you have to use it in a good way. And yes, I think I did. Yeah. I was known to be a little irreverent sometimes in meetings because it breaks the ice and, yeah, I think it helps people relax , and be a bit more comfortable and ultimately be receptive to your message as long as you're not too irreverent.

Claire

Yes, I can’t imagine that you would leave your humor on the side when you're in the workplace.  

Tess

No. You have to be careful, again, in cultural context, because you have to be sensitive to the culture that you're working in. So, you have to know the limit. But at the same time, when people get to know you, and also it gives them a little bit of courage to come out of their shell and feel that, it doesn't all have to be stuffy and that they've got, you know, something to inject into the humor and warmth of the kind of environment that you're trying to create.

Claire

So, I see you as, what I call an organizational shaman. And what a shaman is, it’s someone who's able to navigate different worlds - I think you do that so well, and to bring a little bit of each world into the other world. And my sense is that today in leadership, as you said earlier, it's no longer the Joan Collins, you know, the eighties women leaders, with their shoulder pads, trying to be more men than men, and putting all their feminine nature, their softness, their wildness, leaving all of that in a closet in order to fit in. 

I think today women need to own their sensitivity, Intuition, their emotional intelligence.

We need it in the workplace. And you've done this your entire career, and as you said, probably not as well 35 years ago as you do it now. You honed it, but you trusted it. And that's how you became the leader that you are today. You trusted your nature. Something in you knew that you couldn't  do what you were doing without being Tess.

Tess

Yes. I think that's true. And can I say, though, and yes, I accept all of that and I'll own that, and I thank you for that. I'd also like to say about the two-way street cultural. Because you pick up practices from being in very collective cultures that I work in and that you bring it to somewhere like Europe, which might be less used to the way that people will work collectively, that they kind of, they're task focused, that everybody will come to the table and it's about, maybe one of the things I learned working in the Arab world was that even the weakest, even those that are seen as not perhaps in the bigger picture, as being able to contribute. Everybody has somebody something to contribute. And I think it's about valuing everybody. You know, it's, you look at it as a society on the whole, they don't have old people's homes in that part of the world.

They don't need them because old people will stay with the families and be looked after them. And if you transfer that to the workplace or to teams or gangs that you want to work with. It’s about everybody has something to offer and I find that the West, we're all sort of caught up with exception and who can do best and you know, and I think it's about, really valuing what everybody can bring to the table, even if on the surface it looks they might not fit in with the profile of, you know, exceptional team member. 

Claire

Absolutely. Every person has a gift to give. And, part of your role as a leader is to be able to reflect that gift and to see them for what they have. And then when you do that, they start excelling at what they're good at

Tess not at what they, well, it's not, sorry to cut in Claire, I apologize. But it's not just leaders. It's about the team's role to recognize the gift. So, it's the leader's role, if you like, to do it in a non-patronizing, in a valuable way, to highlight what people can do. But other people also who respect what people bring to the table. And I think that's key to making teams work because if you know you are valued by the leadership and your colleagues, that what you have to bring to the table, whatever it might be. It means that you are more likely to open up and be prepared, to be nurtured and to nurture yourself. 

Claire

Totally. And and when the leader does it well, then the whole team can pick up on that. 

Tess

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Leading by example.Yeah.

Claire

Yeah. Anything else that we haven't touched that you'd like to bring?

Tess

No. I think that's been a really lovely opportunity to explore the experiences that I’ve had. I am a doer, so I've always been a kind of a get in there, do it, make it happen. So, this has been a fabulous opportunity that you've given me as a great gift, Claire. The opportunity to reflect on the experiences that I've had, and as you say, you know, sometimes you just go in and do these things. You don’t know why you do them the way you do them. So, coming away and saying, oh, look at that, is a tremendous opportunity. So I thank you. 

Claire. I'm glad it was helpful. I actually do have a last question. If you were to give one advice to your 20 years old younger self - a leadership advice, what would it be? 

Tess

Don't struggle so hard, don't try so hard to please people. Trust yourself. Trust your instincts.

Trust that you're going to be doing the right thing. You will never please everybody. And what you need to do is stay true to yourself and that's how you achieve what it is you want to achieve. 

So, don't struggle so hard to try to please everybody. 

Claire

Thank you, Tess. It was a pleasure. 

Tess

Thank you, Claire. I really enjoyed talking to you and I love your series. I think it's enlightening and inspiring. Thank you. 

Claire

Thank you.