The Game-Changing Role of Women in today's Blue and Green Economy

Asia Ghemri is a senior strategic consultant at the Asian Development Bank (ADB) who is doing incredible work in promoting women's leadership in the green and blue economy in Southeast Asia. 

In this conversation, we dive into Asia's holistic approach to sustainable development, considering the long-term impact on the environment and local economies. What really resonated with me was Asia's passionate explanation of how empowering women's leadership in these sectors is key to creating local resilience.  

She highlighted women's natural propensity to care and their unique creativity, which stems from their specific needs and experiences and emphasized the importance of giving women more opportunities to lead projects that contribute to communities development and social progress.  Asia herself is a testament of the incredible potential of women's leadership in creating a world that works for everyone! 

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Transcript

Claire

I am delighted to welcome Asia Ghemri today on the Woman Rise Podcast. As a senior strategic consultant for the Asian Developmental Bank, Asia’s role involves providing expertise and guidance in the area of gender inclusion within the green and blue economy in Southeast Asia. 

 Asia's focus, however, beyond ensuring gender inclusion is about making sure that more women today have access to leadership roles on projects that are socially inclusive, environmentally sustainable, and economically viable.

 Asia, I am delighted to have you here. I have been looking forward to this conversation. 

 Asia

Thanks for having me. I'm really glad to take part in this interview. 

 Claire

Asia, I forgot to mention you are based in Brussels.  And you have been working in international development for your entire Tire career for about 20 years Right 

 Asia

About 25 years. Yeah. Across three continents.  

Claire

Across three continents. Wow.  So Asia would you get us started with giving us a sense of what's dear to your heart? 

What animates you in the work that you do? 

Asia

Okay. Let me set the background maybe a little bit in the sense that the two types of the economy that I have close to my heart actually are the green and the blue economies, one being more well-known than the other. Both of those economies actually revolve around the care of the Earth. For some that are more familiar with the international development world, they will link it to sustainability, in terms of crisis and others, and especially with the climate change that we have both of those types of economies should be increased in the next few years and decades.

 And I've looked at the question of, who's participating. Who is leading? In those two economies. And I came to the conclusion not only actually in Southeast Asia, but around the world, that those economies are led mainly by men. Um, most of it, when women are actually active in there, they're more into the informal work.

Uh, low-paid, low-skill jobs and it's becoming certainly more difficult,  now, , for them to access any position of leadership in those two economies.

Claire

And you're saying that this is not only in Southeast Asia but also in the West?  is it not necessarily an educational issue? 

 Asia 

No. It can be access to finance, access to the property, for you to make a loan, for example, to access a loan. It is also a state of mind, knowing that you can in a lot of places, including in Europe, Women don't feel that they are entitled or that they have a role to play in terms of leadership, especially for those two economies that are still actually, moving slowly in terms of being a main component within a national economy.

So, I would say more like, it's more of an information and thinking about women themselves, having to position themselves up as leaders. Convincing them that they have the tools and if they don't, informing them where they can catch those tools, learn about them, and move on actually with it.

Most of the time there's this construction also as well in terms of, the content of those two economies where I feel actually that women have everything to give and to participate in those two economies. Why? Because it's a caring economy and we as women have actually a sensitive, sensibility that is kind of different.

We are not the equal of men, we don't think the same way. So meaning we don't create the same things. So it's actually a shame, if we lose on the creativity potential,  in terms of those three economies to create the life of tomorrow actually for every society. 

Claire

Hmm. You said a few important things here. The first one is women care differently. Then you make an interesting statement about women's creativity. Women don't create the same things. I want, to hear more of what you have to say about these two things but first, why don't you define for our listeners, more specifically; what you mean by the green and blue economy, just to be sure that we're on the same page?

Asia

 Yeah. Let me start with the blue economy, which is the less known but the easiest to grasp. It's actually simple.

It's the ocean-based economy. Everything that has to do with water, with the sea actually. So any countries that have oceans or seas as borders will actually take advantage of an economy that can be sourced and through respect also of the ocean health. I'll give you some examples, renewable energy, turbines that we put far out at sea.

For example, consider renewable energy and actually part of the blue economy, seagrass as a product. Can be turned into so many different products actually. And they're actually kind of active into that in Southeast Asia, developing different sub-products that are based on seagrass and even secondary product to increase the circularity of the economy.

So it's actually in touch with nature. The only difference with the green economy is that the blue economy is related to the ocean. And so the green economy itself will be, all the renewable energies, that we have, all the green agriculture that we, we do also to sustain in terms of agriculture, it would be having sustainable agriculture, not using pesticides, not using extensive agriculture, that is damage manageable to the soil, so it's looking on both of them. It's looking actually on the long term, so not in a short term. But with a long-term perspective of having a resource that is not going to be depleted. 

Claire

Thank you for clarifying Asia that was helpful. So now let's go back to what you said earlier “Women care differently and create differently”. Tell me more about that.

Asia

I feel that in the course of my career, as I've also worked with a lot of women's organizations and as a woman who has also raised my daughter with other women from various countries in various cultures, I've seen actually that we are in touch differently with nature. That we tend to think on a more long-term basis than a short-term base.

Uh, that's more priority that males have the short-term gain, the competition, we have less of this because we are more oriented to being one with our environment. We're less conflictual with nature. We tend to care about it. If you look at, for example, taking care of plants, taking care of communities at sea, for example. I've seen it in Indonesia, as well as in Thailand also, where it's a lot of women actually that don't have the leadership position but are doing all the background work. And have a certain way of approaching it. 

Claire

Okay, I'm going to challenge you a little bit here. Because I imagine that if I'm a man in a leadership role within a green or blue economy organization, I probably care about the Earth, right? And the oceans. So how does my leadership differ from a women's perspective? 

You mentioned that women often don't get the chance to be in charge and bring their own creativity but what about men how do they fall short in leadership positions? And this is not about trying to pit men against women obviously, but there are definitely certain qualities and traits that you're talking about…

Asia

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that, as you said, there's nothing to be opposed. It's not like this. I mean, I know that, uh, nowadays we are used to having opposing black-and-white points of view. But this is not actually how nature has done things. We just have different ways of, dealing with conflict. We still have different ways of dealing with people.

I can see it in terms of management, where leadership of men will be more focused solely on pushing his team, uh, towards, delivering, for example, without knowing how to sometimes motivate them by caring. And where a woman actually, uh, in the same position will take a different route, a different strategy,  in terms of leadership and would motivate on a personal emotional basis.

But a lot of the time, her team, because she will get to know them, know the constraint, know their weakness, their force, and know how to balance those actually, And that suggest a different way at going at leadership. But maybe what actually strikes me is that a lot of women, even when they arrive to position of leadership, try to mimic the style of men and even try to go overboard.

Why? Because as women who have had a hard time climbing the stairs of their career, they've been pushed every time to justify the position and how they arrived there and to deliver kind of close to perfection,  where it's with, we are more demanding of women staff than of male staff.

And we will be more understanding of a male being clashing, for example, with a colleague. We will say, okay, it's a testosterone thing, that's fine, and we'll get over it. When it's a woman will say, okay, she's crazy, she's emotional hysteric. And when we use actually a bunch of words that are different for the same act being done by men and women.

So it does explain actually the fact that women try and intend to, okay, if it's the male that is the norm, then let's be like men. But in doing so, we are losing again the potential that women can create their own space. Being themselves and can actually nourish the literature that is going on in terms of management, leadership style, and what works and doesn't work.

Claire

That's beautiful. Asia, as you know, I'm all about this, and about women owning and reclaiming their sensitive, caring nature in the workplace and really bringing this dimension into the work. We're talking about a connection to the heart, a heart connection, and that's what you're pointing to here in the sense that this idea of community.

The sense that women naturally bring a sense of community wherever they go. And, when they're empowered to do that, rather than stay within the roles, the cliché of the man leader in the workplace, when they free themselves from the need to elbow their sisters out  in order to make it, in order to climb the hierarchical ladder. Then something else becomes possible. 

And so, tell us more about what happens when women have the guts to embrace their caring and sensitive nature and freely express their creativity at work.

 Asia

A lot of things become possible. So many options, and we are just scratching the base actually, the surface right now. It’s still not something that is the norm. And I understand the fact that it's risky for women to choose actually that path and that strategy to be themselves and bring their own tools, their own emotions, own them, explain them because they will have to do a lot of explanation and they will have to convince.

They're surrounding other women as well as other men that, their style, what they bring to the table is important and is actually something that should be taken into account. It'll come at a certain price, for those of us that are risking this path, actually. But, let me tell you maybe a little bit about my daughter's reaction to all of this, because she's 19 and I can see when discussing with her in terms of women's rights, and women's leadership and she could see also the different project that I've been taking, a part of and how actually it's been dealt with in terms of my own gender and that young generation is not willing to accept whatever we've been accepting, for other generations that have passed. And I think that they will bring something new if we open the path for them.  They're less actually inclined to mimic men or to accept actually deposition as women in a traditional role actually.

They will push, I think, forward and more, to have their own space with their style, with their contribution, and let me tell you that I'm sure they're gonna be very creative in terms of the blue and the green economy because they trust that,  those two economies are the right path. For transition that - we are calling transition, this period of climate change crisis. Some people are convinced that it’s about technology, but I'm more convinced about human participation.  And that's where I think it's super important to convince every woman that they have their own space to create within those two economies before they get locked in the male world. 

So that's why I'm fighting for professionally and personally.

Claire

That's huge. And that takes us to your second point about creativity. What do you sense that women are bringing to the table in terms of their creativity and their capacity to imagine differently than men? 

Asia

Because they source from their own needs, which are different from the needs of men, they will come up with solutions that are completely different and that may respond to some actual lack of market for their own needs. For example, let's take the most classic example of beauty products. Before actually getting into the beauty product industry, mainly we were taking care of the health and beauty of men.

Women had a little bit of a market, but not that much. But once, actually, we identified that women wanted to have more in terms of their needs being covered for whatever dream they had or help they needed for their body, for their health, then we started to create all of those. So it's responding to needs. So it's the same actually when I see also women in Southeast Asia being leaders in terms of creating products based on nature because they've had their own experience through products that were not done for them or their skins.

Then they started to create their own, according to their own need. It can be so many ways that I didn't even see yet. 

Claire

Let’s take that example you just mentioned about women advocating for their needs and the development of products specifically for Asian women's skin. And if we consider the broader context, my question is, how do women approach this process differently when it comes to the key concerns within the green and blue economy?

Specifically, how do they undertake these projects, from a different perspective?  

Asia

Well, I've seen actually from one lady that I met actually from a community organization in Indonesia, was the fact, and she was telling me, that, bringing her daughter from school every day she was passing by the beach and always like seeing sea grass being on the beach and then being thrown out.

And she was always wondering why we threw something that the sea was bringing, and it was beautifully said, actually. And she had that conversation with her daughter. And she started to look at different information, different aspects of seagrass, and what we can do with it. And she started bit by bit with another friend, a girlfriend of hers gathering together and building actually, what created a community-based organization.

They've asked for loans for micro-loans, and they've started to actually develop products. In the beginning, it didn't work, but they actually were stubborn enough to continue, because they were teaming up together and encouraging each other.  And they were in the end, successful in producing various things.

She found actually a good partnership with the university, that did research on their behalf. And they started to create actually glasses that are made from seaweed and not from plastic.  

Claire

That's a wonderful example. Is this like an isolated example or do you have more like this?

Asia

No, no, there are many, they're too micro for now to really be scaled up nationally, and that's why I'm pushing actually for a new initiative with the Asian Development Bank. And I think that they are, are trying to gather enough funding and investment. To de-multiply all those initiatives and create new ones.

But it's a question also of finding the right strategy in the right country, to have actually an approach where we can get into a community and offer actually discussion first. So that a women's group create those group, and then those women's group can tackle the different needs that they have within the community and how they can answer those needs from the nature that surround them.

So, closing the loop on sustainability, but also on what we call circularity.  Which is, trying to shorten chain supply. Trying to produce locally. And to be used locally so that everything is actually used 1, 2, 3, or 4 times. And we avoid that thing of like producing and throwing things.

That's the intention. So it's a whole new way of thinking, and it does take time, but it does also need to; we need to convince men of the value of having women, not just as being part of the statistic.  In terms of, okay, I have a certain number of staff that are female, and so I have my quota, so I did my mainstreaming, and so that's fine.

No, trying to push them to reflect and think, about how actually a woman in a position of decision making can actually provide more answers to society, more answers to products being designed, for example, or policy to be designed. A lot of the time, you'll find that women are not included in decisions, as decision makers. And it's still difficult to move toward that path. 

Claire

I imagine that this is also influenced by culture, right? Because women are not used to being involved in decision-making processes. Let's say I'm running an organization and I have my quota of women, as you said, and everything seems fine on the surface. However, as you mentioned, women are still not actively participating in  decision-making within the organization. So what steps can be taken according to you? What do you think are the steps that need to be taken, or what role can be played to genuinely encourage women to step up and speak out?

Asia
We have to encourage them in so many ways. The sphere of work, whatever country you work in, is kind of like normalized towards the means of men, for example. Uh, the fact of putting facilities of kindergarten, for example, within a corporation does help the woman in participating more into the labor force because she was free of her charge of being a mother and taking care of kids, which falls most of the time on her.

Whatever culture is, it's improving now, but it's still not up to par. So there's a lot of like, design, in terms of labor force, labor, environment. Where we have to think about the different needs and have that flexibility, for example, offering training that is virtual, that can be given, that the woman can take on her own time whenever she's ready and not a set time where she's gonna have to arrange for things to be taken care of. Because as of now, until now in whatever culture we are in, women are the ones  that are taking care of the elders, for example, not just the kids, but the elders or family cousins, things like this.

So they still have that brunt of work to take care of in addition to the work that they're gonna be doing. So we have to think about domestic work or unpaid work, and how we can value it in society. So that it's being put forefront, so either the woman can continue doing that, but she's getting paid for it.

For example, if we think about different instruments like universal revenue, which is an idea that is being tested in different countries. Also as, well is something that would level the playing field. For a lot of women, especially those that have a low income, providing this would provide them the space for them to think and project themselves into something different.

Because you also have to have the physical access through money, investment, degree, knowledge, things like this. But you also have to change the space in the state of mind. 

Claire

Obviously, you are very invested in creating new possibilities for women by bringing your own creative energy and your own care to change both women's conditions even more so, allowing for a more powerful action to be enacted in service of our planet.

How do you care for your inner space in the midst of such a big mission?  

Asia

Yeah. You learn actually through the years that if you don't take care of yourself, you're unable to provide anything to others. So, the first care is your care. So that's the most important thing that I've learned actually through the years, is to make the time, find the resources. Find a supportive, group if need be, because we all even as women have different needs also as well and different personalities and not maybe the same range of support or care that we may need. 

But I would say I really like finding the time and the space, managing all those conflicting deadlines or priorities that we may have, but still making that space for us as women to have that reflection on our own life and how we want to position ourselves into it.

How do we find a good balance between being who we are and who we project to be in our different functions? I'm thinking especially, I have a lot of colleagues that are also females that are trying to fight either in middle management or in leadership, always arguing of their right to that position and trying to find a balance between their priorities in their life. Whether it's as a mother, as a woman, as a partner, as a wife, whatever is the role actually behind. But finding the inner space to find a good balance and to be at peace actually with the different parts of our life.  

Claire

Earlier, you mentioned your daughter and you said something about our young generation is not ready to make so many compromises anymore. I sense that this is also in the picture for our young generation, and you're a little younger than me. So the last two generations, I would say, have made a lot of compromises to get to the top leadership roles. And so there is an invitation, and you just said it beautifully earlier, that we have the responsibility to open the path for that, for our daughters,  that there must be a way that we can be in those leadership roles and, and have the power to make the decisions that are going to be essential for the next 50 years, for our planet from a place of balance, from a place of not having to compromise work versus life, or even having a child, versus having a  good job.  And these are the compromises that we've had to make, you know, in some ways. So hopefully, our daughters are. Not gonna be so willing to make those compromises. 

Asia

I think so in the sense that already among themselves they have different dynamics, and that you can sit in any country. It's not particular to one specifically. Yeah. But it's also because they've been raised with, role models, , whether close to them or far from them.

Even like, if we think about singers like Beyonce, those women. Who have been fighting to own their, for example, their sexuality, own their business simultaneously, and not be shy of either or. So for them, it's been a good example of how we can manage and own actually whatever we are and bring it into our professional life, even if it's not the norm.

And normally, women were not supposed to behave this way. They've imposed them actually and made it possible for daughters like mine to think of themselves as like, potentially they can do the same, they can be themselves whatever it is, and bring it and associate that with success. Even if it's not the norm, as it as it is, they've seen those fights actually and they agree with it, and they kind of have, this younger generation has also a taste for the Earth, they know very well about the climate change. They've accepted it, in the sense that they know we're not gonna fight against that because that's the way it is. We just have to now change gears, and model our society so that it is more respectful of the Earth.

And for them, it is so ingrained already that they're already imagining the next society and it goes fast. If you look at tools like TikTok, those things, that have been actually successful because of that young generation,  you could see that they are a force to be reckoned with in terms of changing society quite rapidly.

And maybe more rapidly than we've been doing because, in that sense, our generation has been more towards doing incremental baby steps. To achieve a little bit and be content with that little bit. And so that's the change. That's where we also, have to move out from this incremental baby step because I think I've mentioned that previously, the United Nations Secretary General said something super important.

He said that, actually, if we are going at that pace, it's gonna take us. 300 years. And, there is scientific calculation behind it, I don't think it's like just an imagination or a sentence like this, but it would take us 300 years just to be equal to men. And so that is not acceptable and that's why we have to change strategy. We have to change the way we are thinking,, and not accept just a little role, but leadership roles. 

Claire

Well, the thing is that we won't have the 300 years. We don't have them. 

Asia

No. On the society and how it's modeled right now ? Uh, not at all. It's not gonna happen? No. Not even like a hundred years. That's it. We’ll lose our potential. But I think it's time. Uh, and it's not always a problem of culture. I know that sometimes people may think, okay, for example, I'll give you the example of a Muslim country because most of the time when I talk about gender, people give me that example. 

But even in terms of,  Muslim countries, , women's positions and roles are more tricky than we think. And they've been in leadership so many times, but different timing, different types of society, and sometimes different types of roles. I'll give you just two short, very quick examples. For example, in Indonesia, once again, the sort of religious calling, for example, in the community,  it's women who are in charge of, going and looking for men to go to prayer.

And if they don't, it’s the women that have the stick to punish the men. This is something that struck me. I was thinking that's the reverse, that they would be hiding or something like this. And when I saw actually this, I was like, okay, roles are different whether you agree with the religion thing or not, this is something different.

Um, the, maybe another example was in a long time ago in Yemen, we had actually a queen of kingdoms. In certain countries in Africa, you still have women-led communities, as it was previously for zillions of years. So the rule of women, how they interact with men, and how they can take a more eminent role in society are not set either in stone.

Because it has been evolving for years and not just towards progress, but it's back and forth sometimes. Sometimes we have a period in history where women are leading in certain parts of the earth, and another part of history, we have male dominance, but it's been mostly male dominant. But we have to think as women that it has been possible. 

Claire

Definitely, and there are two things here. We need to remind women they are powerful and have had the power before. And - I sense that today, the stakes are high, and what we need are more women and men that are empowered with more evolved feminine and masculine qualities of leadership. There's nothing wrong with competition if it's enacted toward caring. I think that's really what we need to understand today is that we need more male and female leadership at an evolved consciousness because the stakes are too high to play a small game.

We need to play a game that's for the whole planet, and caring is really at the heart of it. And that heart. Whether male or or female, it's about having an awakened heart and leading from that heart in service of what we need to do.

Asia

Exactly, exactly. So imagine the full potential of women wanting some love in society and what they can bring to society, in terms of reformatting for themselves, but also for the next generations to come. 

Claire

Asia, it's been a wonderful conversation. Your energy and your enthusiasm about this topic are just so contagious. I enjoyed sharing with you, and thank you for being such an inspiration. There's so much positivity in your message and so much hope that we need that today. We need a lot of hope. 

Asia

I really hope that your audience will take something positive from it and will transform it into their own life. 

Claire

Anything that you wanna say as a last offering to our audience? Anything that you wanna touch on that you haven't yet? Or do you feel complete? 

Asia

No, I feel complete. I will just say trust yourself. Trust your nature and bring on. 

Claire

Thank you so much

Asia

Thank you