What if being hypersensitive was a superpower, especially in the high-pressure world of national security? In this episode of Women Rise, Leela McClintock, a national security strategist shares how fostering a healthy relationship with her emotions has helped her remain authentic in her professional field's demanding setting.
Further in the conversation, we discuss how acknowledging the emotional impact of tragic events can break the cycle of violence and we explore the importance of diversity in our collective journey towards a safer future.
Leela's courage to be show up fully as a sensitive woman navigating her career in security, offers other young women in this field a wonderful role model, promotion diversity and emotional well-being in the field.
Short Bio: Leela McClintock is an early career professional with project development, research, and field implementation experience in international security, combatting misinformation/disinformation campaigns and WSE, intelligence brief writing, OSINT, and CBRN nonproliferation. She is committed to enhancing diversity and gender equity within the national security field.
LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leela-m-872924139/
Thank you for listening to Women Rise. Sign up for my distribution list so you never miss an episode. Learn more about the Women Rise leadership program for women change-makers on my website. If you'd like to be considered to be interviewed on this podcast, please write me directly or take this survey to find out if you're a good fit.
What if being hypersensitive was a superpower, especially in the high-pressure world of national security? In this episode of Women Rise, Leela McClintock, a national security strategist shares how fostering a healthy relationship with her emotions has helped her remain authentic in her professional field's demanding setting.
Further in the conversation, we discuss how acknowledging the emotional impact of tragic events can break the cycle of violence and we explore the importance of diversity in our collective journey towards a safer future.
Leela's courage to be show up fully as a sensitive woman navigating her career in security, offers other young women in this field a wonderful role model, promotion diversity and emotional well-being in the field.
Short Bio: Leela McClintock is an early career professional with project development, research, and field implementation experience in international security, combatting misinformation/disinformation campaigns and WSE, intelligence brief writing, OSINT, and CBRN nonproliferation. She is committed to enhancing diversity and gender equity within the national security field.
LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leela-m-872924139/
Thank you for listening to Women Rise. Sign up for my distribution list so you never miss an episode. Learn more about the Women Rise leadership program for women change-makers on my website. If you'd like to be considered to be interviewed on this podcast, please write me directly or take this survey to find out if you're a good fit.
Hello and welcome to Women Rise, a podcast about women changemakers that explores the emergence of a new leadership paradigm which calls us to lead from within. I'm your host, claire Molina, and I live and work on the island of Corsica, in the south of France. I'm a holistic coach and therapist. I teach and facilitate developmental programs for conscious women changemakers, helping them move from depleted and disconnected to resourced and interconnected. Every week I meet with other women leaders and we explore the inner game of leadership and how, in this time of emergency, we are being called to our unique self-emergence to co-create a world that works for everyone.
Claire:I am delighted to have Leela McClintock talk today on this episode of Women Rise. Lila is a strategy development professional in the Washington DC area with background in strategy program management and experience in researching far-right digital extremism and information operations. Just recently, lila was hired by the Center on Terrorism, extremism and Counterterrorism as their programming strategy development coordinator. As an advocate for diversity and gender equity in the national security field, lila is also a trailblazer who has the courage to show up in the workplace as the empath that she is, the sensitive soul who feels deeply. Lila, I'm delighted to welcome you to this episode of Women Rise. I met you through an article that you wrote recently, which resonated with my work in empowering women leaders to embrace their sensitive and spiritual nature. That was inspired to discuss with you how you've been able to reclaim the gift of your sensitive nature in an environment such as national security, where the focus is often on managing high-pressure situations which can have an emotional intense impact. So I'm really looking forward to having that conversation with you. Welcome.
Leela:Thank you so much, Claire, and I really appreciate your kind words and introduction. It's really wonderful to be here. Yeah, I think for me from childhood I was always a very sensitive person, very sensitive child. My dad used to tell me anytime I would cry at a film or cry listening to music or cry because of an issue that happened with a friend, to make me feel better, he would always tell me you are a highly empathetic, intelligent, artistic individual. I never really understood what he meant and I still am trying to figure out the significance of his words. But I think from a very young age I always knew that I was going to feel things incredibly deeply and have some really emotionally rich experiences but also some really difficult ones.
Leela:And it's very true what you say about the national security field and international security field. Writ large, they're very closed off to people that are highly sensitive and often those that are highly sensitive that work in those types of fields are kind of pigeonholed into very specific facets of the field. So somebody who feels fear and joy and sadness very intensely might not be perceived as someone who could be successful and an intelligence agency or somebody working on these highly critical kind of mission oriented environments. But I think I've learned through my experience working on issues pertaining to terrorism, domestic extremism, mis and disinformation is that you need sensitivity, actually, and empathy in order to solve these problems, Because they disproportionately impact human beings, and I think sometimes we forget about that. When we're so caught up in being productive and efficient, we forget that sometimes the biggest answer is to show our humanity on all sides of the spectrum. And I can elaborate that more as we go on, but it's kind of my first answer to your question.
Claire:Well, that's beautiful Leela, that's really what seems to be the next step in our collective effort to transition to creating a world that works for everyone, and what I hear you say is that, through your owning and reclaiming your sensitivity, you're able to bring something that is lacking in the environment that you work in, and it takes a huge amount of maturity and courage, I would say, to show up in a way that's different from the collective. What gave you that courage?
Leela:Thank you. Yeah, I think for me I was always somebody that's been interested in a lot of different things and I also grew up in a mixed background. So my mom grew up in India and moved to the United States to get a master's degree in French literature actually, and met my dad in New York in their French literature PhD program. So I kind of grew up with parents that were very interested in the world and very interested in people and other cultures, and that's really how I grew up. I grew up traveling back and forth to India as a child to visit my extended family. My parents made different friends through their kind of academic trajectories from Brazil and Italy and kind of various parts of the world, and so I just think I was surrounded by a lot of highly artistic, emotional people and I think it helped me foster my own emotions.
Leela:And so growing up I was very into musical theater. I sang in choir for seven to eight years. I took art classes in college. I was a Middle East Studies and Italian Studies double major and so I always peppered in my security interests and international relations interests in there.
Leela:But primarily I was interested in cultures and languages, and that is the reality of international relations and security, I mean the people, the state actors that are involved are all comprised of people that have various backgrounds, speak different languages, come from different cultures, have these different norms that they live with, and I think we live in a world where people constantly feel like they need to hold back and restrict themselves and that kind of leads to people not actually communicating with each other, quite simply. And so I think, for me, I found that acting with empathy and being comfortable in my own emotions and having, I guess, for me personally, feeling open enough to share them, has enabled me to foster connections with so many different types of people, and I think that's how I've been able to kind of come to my own in this field through connecting with others, through my emotion, and I think that's something that I've just learned from having being an only child to two very kind of free-spirited parents. I guess you could say that's beautiful Lila.
Claire:It really feels to me that you came with a blessing. You know that openness to the world, the arts, the different cultures, and I find it quite wonderful really that someone like you is landing in your field. So for a listener, lila, give us a little more sense of what it is that you do and maybe some context around it. How did you get there?
Leela:Yeah, so I worked at an organization in Arlington called CRDF Global, which is primarily a project management and logistics organization for countering various threats, so not even just restricted to, you know, international security, but they also have programs that work on improving global health, you know, practicing further innovations and technological advancement. So they kind of cover a vast variety of spaces. But I worked specifically on their nuclear nonproliferation wing, which has been another kind of thread through my career. So I've done various internships on nuclear nonproliferation. That's actually how I met initially some of the folks who are working on far-right extremism, because, believe it or not, there are intersections between far-right extremism and nuclear proliferation, unfortunately there are threats in that arena for sure.
Leela:But yeah, so before this job I had the opportunity to organize different events and conferences around the world, basically all pertaining to stopping the spread of nuclear proliferation, and one of the best experiences I had from that job was having the chance to travel to India and lead my first conference.
Leela:It was actually the first time I had been back in maybe 10 years or so, and so it was also an opportunity for me to kind of go back and see one part of my own heritage that I used to go to so much as a child and that was an amazing experience because what I loved about it was just getting to meet all of the different participants and guests and it was exciting because there were a small contingent of women in our group overwhelming me the participants for men because of the fields that I work in.
Leela:But it was really exciting to see so many South Asian women in attendance and we all took a photograph at the end because also, myself and the associate I worked with were women and it was amazing just to connect with them on what it's like to work in security and kind of thinking about these issues in their industries, you know, in India, bangladesh and other countries, so kind of even there, while it was very kind of contract based and, you know, hyper security management focused, I guess I found a way to pepper in my own passions for human connection in the field Because, again, the people that are working on these issues are all coming to work with their own baggage and their own, you know, sense of self and sense of culture, and so that's kind of been my trajectory I guess the last couple of years, and I think what I wrote about my article is that I've never really been able to extract my emotions from my work and how.
Leela:I think a lot of people, especially for women, can see that as a problem, and that's why there are so many women that are immediately iced out in male dominated environments, because there's the assumption that their emotions will control them. They won't be able to do anything Right.
Claire:So what do you think is the mindset? Is it because it's a traditionally male dominated field and there is a kind of stereotype of the emotional woman that still very much should play?
Leela:I think it's kind of a multi-pronged issue. I think what you speak to is definitely true. I think these industries are still extremely male dominated, particularly white male dominated, and so there are much fewer seats at the table for women, and for women of color as well, who are trying to enter into this, enter into this field. And you know, I think something I've learned as well is that because these systems are so inherently patriarchal and because there's so little room for women, women often feel like they need to compete with each other to succeed and there's less of this impetus for collaboration and to help each other. You know, rise to the top in these spaces and so we can be at the top together. I don't think that's everyone. I've met some really amazing women who have supported me and mentors in my life, but I have noticed that it's harder to meet younger women who are starting out in these careers, because there is that inherent competition there and I think that is a product of how male dominated the field is. I think also on another level, systemically, I think, unfortunately, people from diverse backgrounds and women and others are not really given the tools to succeed or have knowledge about this field.
Leela:I mean, when I. I didn't even know what nuclear nonproliferation was until my sophomore year of college and I felt very much out of my depth in my first internship. I was on the younger side and everybody else seemed to have all this knowledge about these governmental theories and, you know, world issues, and it was just something that I, you know, didn't. I didn't really have that much you know, intellectual, I'd say, knowledge about. I could speak about things based on how they made me feel, but I really struggled to contract, like the theoretical part of my brain. And then, you know, over time, I learned the theories and I learned, you know, what's happening and I started following the news more and I just became more passionate about the field in general.
Leela:But I think something I've never been able to lose is my, my emotion and intensity, and I was actually just speaking to a colleague the other day. We just actually heard a presentation about the role emotion plays in facilitating far right extremism and a lot of those groups act because of powerful emotion and commit acts of violence because of powerful emotion. And when I was talking to this colleague she was telling me how, you know, she herself is an emotional person but feels like, over time, learned to wear a mask and kind of harden herself, because it just became too difficult, and I understand that. I mean, there are times I leave work and I'm drained, I'm tired and I you know, because I'm feeling so much, and I guess what I realized, though, is that when I wear that mask right if I have a day where I'm concealing my emotions I'm still going to go home and feel really intensely about the issue, and so I think, sometimes, having the opportunity to be myself in the workplace and speak transparently about the issues that I care about and how I'm feeling, I always leave my office, even if I've expended a lot of motion and I'm tired, I always feel relieved and I feel like I've put something productive out there into the space, and so that that's sort of you know how I've been able, I guess, to carry it with me and where, I think, a lot of the roots of these problems are.
Leela:I think not only are these fields male dominated, but, you know, I don't think women are also given the resources to actually have knowledge or succeed in these fields, and so we're forced to either compete with each other or conceal parts of ourselves to succeed, and I don't think it is the same for men, because I just think we live in a world that caters to man a lot of the time and you know we have to adapt to that because we're in a national security field and that's the perceived idea of how it should appear to the world.
Claire:And I think for that that's very well said. I can't imagine how it must be for a woman of color who's emotional to be in an environment like this and to actually claim your emotions, and I think in this case. How has it been perceived? How is it received?
Leela:Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's really. I've had some really positive experiences, but I've also had some quite negative experiences, I think, especially when I first started out working. I was in an internship and I loved the work. I loved the work but I put so much of myself into the work and, because I was still an intern, I wasn't really being treated like an intern. I was kind of acting more as a full-time employee. But it took a lot of energy out of me.
Leela:And I think some of the problems with some of these areas of work in national security is that we're so caught up in mitigating the threat that we don't actually actually focus on employee well-being. And I think that was something I kind of came to terms with. Like I'm going to feel I'm going to work on these issues that are so deeply distressing for anybody or for most people, and I'm someone that's more sensitive. Working on these deeply distressing issues and I may not have adequate support in my working environment. And coming to that realization made me question why I was doing this work and why I should keep doing it. And I think what I realized recently through meeting some really positive, making some really positive connections, having conversations like the ones we're having now with other women that work in this field, who maybe haven't felt comfortable talking about these things before, is, I feel, really excited to potentially serve as a resource for women of color who want to enter this field and are afraid because they're more sensitive. I think something that has encouraged me when I was a kid seeing my mom do things I really wanted to do them, or feeling inspired when a friend did really well in test and it motivated me to work harder and to try harder and to use them as a resource. I think I would love to be someone that can act as a support for other young people trying to enter this field who may feel like they don't have a place, because if you look at it, on paper I don't really have a place in this field, but you're able to carve it.
Leela:It's possible, and I think the only way I've been able to find my place in this field has been through being genuine to myself. It's been the reason I've wanted to stay, because I think if I hadn't been genuine, I would have been so tired of trying to be someone else, and I think the reason why I'm passionate is because these are the things I deeply care about and it's the reason why I want to stay, and I think it's just harder when you're younger to do that, because you have to rise through the ranks. And I have definitely thought about that, how that concerns me, like my mom was even telling me she's like are you sure? Are you sure you want to be so open about how you're feeling? It's like? Well, if I'm not, I think I might feel worse down the line and at the end of the day, you know my wellness and the wellness of those around me is the most important thing. So I'd say that's how I approach it and look at it and what I've dealt with.
Claire:It's quite a mature approach. I'm curious what is your sense of what women like you are potentially bringing to this field that hasn't been seen before? What is the innovation or the possibility?
Leela:That's a really good question, I think, for me. I think the way I see it is, I hope that I'm bringing a sense of comfort to people, that they can be themselves when they talk to me or when they work with me. And I think, working this role I'm in now, in which I'm kind of centralizing processes and thinking about taking a broader look at perceiving how a small academic center could grow, I realized how important it is to have somebody you can talk comfortably with about the issues you care about and about what you're going through and how what you're going through pertains to the work that you're doing. And so I think for me, I hope to bring, I sincerely hope that I can be someone that folks can look at and say you know, leela, somebody that really cares about the people she works with and really cares about the issues she works on. And I'm hoping to see more of that in the field.
Leela:Not that I think people don't care.
Leela:I just think people are afraid to show how much they care because people want to come across as hardened and successful and driven and productive, and I think sometimes emotions seemingly contradict with that.
Leela:I don't believe that they do, but I think the perception is that being sensitive and having emotion is going to prevent you from being productive.
Leela:I think that's what I look at when I think of the American workforce, but what I found is that, you know, when I think about changes we keep wanting to make in the field, you know, diminishing people from you're not diminishing people, sorry, diminishing individuals from joining, you know, extremist groups or preventing some of these big, you know, national security threats is so much of them haven't changed because People are quickly reducing there the amount of emotion we put into them. Something I was talking about with a friend the other day is that when a big event happens, something really tragic, people immediately come in and politicize the situation, and you need to think about it from a political perspective, of course, but I also think people need to take the time to grieve what has happened and something and something we talked about, is the importance of collective grieving and community grieving. Sometimes you just need to take a minute and like, say okay, like, this is how I'm feeling, yes exactly.
Claire:It's become such a common default mode to go directly into our thoughts rather than Feeling, rather than actually acknowledging the pain that we're experiencing. And if you think of it, going into our mind, our opinions is actually a great strategy.
Leela:It prevents us from feeling pain, it keeps us safe and and we've just become experts at avoiding discomfort, numbing the pain and I just think like the only way to tackle some of these big issues is if we take the Time to reflect about how they're actually affecting us and affecting the communities that are so deeply impacted, because the communities, you know, when a mass shooting happens, right Like, the first thing we need to think about is how can we support the community, how can we make changes to, you know, make sure not only that this doesn't happen again, but that there are resources given to these people and that they're given the time to grieve and that they grieve with them In this particular example, which is a great one Do you actually drive some initiatives or suggest some ways of dealing with the situation, that we shift something in the system?
Leela:I think, for me, I think something I like to think about when something like that happens, you know, a big shooting is that. You know, and it's connected to the presentation I recently saw about Emotions and far-right extremism or just acts of terror in general. I think you need to have people that are going to try to understand you know, why was someone compelled to carry out such a heinous act of violence? I think people throw around a lot of different things in the media, like mental health. You know different things like that, which, yeah, I mean, that's very much true. But there's also systemic issues that cause somebody to feel that intensely to carry out an active violence. You know Systemic inequity, lack of housing, lack of jobs. You know people. You know moving into more rural areas and buying properties and making things Impossible to afford.
Leela:There are so many reasons why people are driven to, you know, join terrorist groups. You know, especially when they're young, right, they're sucked into this. You know, something the historians spoke about in the presentation was you kind of fall into this abyss and you lose your sense of self because you're so lost in your own emotion and what's something that pulls you out of it. Someone's saying I'm there for you, I'm there to help you, and then they bring you in to some extremist group, and I think it happens a lot in jails. Yeah, it happens. It happens a lot in prison and I think in that sense, I think from a policy standpoint, we're approaching this entirely the wrong way. If bad actors are coming in and sucking in individuals by giving them empathy, why aren't we providing that same empathy to stop that, you know, extremist to violence pipeline? I think that's what I don't understand. So I'm hoping that if I ever I don't know if I will if I ever get into a position where I can talk about these types of policies, I think sensitivity, you know, empathy, emotional support, resources, you know, need to be a much bigger part of the conversation and how to actually mitigate terrorism from happening.
Leela:Because I think the unfortunate reality is there's so many people, you know, there's so many threats in the world and there's so little resources that you need to constantly think about mitigating the next threat. But if you don't take the time to think about the emotional components, you know, for both the victim and the perpetrator, you're not going to stop the violence, and I think that's something that a lot of people, you know are uncomfortable talking about because it is uncomfortable, you know you have to not only put your own emotions in there, but you have to think about the emotions of all parties involved, and so that's a lot, but it's really important and I think that's the only way to actually understand you know these issues and how to solve them, and I think it requires a full society of response. So it's not only experts from you know military, it's not only you know academics on terrorism, but also psychologists and doctors, and you know people that have a deep understanding of how the human mind works and advocates like it requires everyone to stop the violent acts from happening.
Claire:You know so as I listen to you talk, Lila, my heart is sinking because I'm hearing someone who has a holistic view, a systemic approach and has the sensitivity and the capacity to reach out and express these things in a way that touches people. I think your message can be easily understood because you talk from the heart, so you don't just describe a bunch of problems that you analyze. There's a lot of humanity in how you talk about these issues. You actually feel them and you feel the responses that are needed. And this way of being in the workplace, especially in organizations like the field in which you're in, it's quite new.
Claire:You're obviously not the only person operating from that heart-centered place, but it's quite a new trait, a new quality which I see is emerging more often in the young generations. And what I'm noticing is there's a gap between young leaders like you and leaders from older generations that come from a more conventional way of being. And I'm noticing two things. One is that I see you and other women like you as what I call organizational shamans, because you have one foot on one world and one foot on the other and you're kind of acting as a bridge for the transition to happen and you're still having to deal and work with people that often are hierarchically superior, and I'm just curious to know how it works on a daily basis. I mean, what challenges do you encounter?
Leela:Yeah, that's a great question and again I appreciate your kind words. I think honestly I'm inspired by so many other women just talking with them and I feel like that's how I've been able to be so open. But I think from that standpoint that's definitely been one of the more challenging facets of operating kind of as myself in the workplace in this capacity. I think for me, anytime I enter a conversation with somebody who hierarchically just has more experience or I guess has become a bit. I mean, a lot of people have told me that you know just, you'll see in a few years when you're more cynical, a lot of people tell me that and I can understand that. I can understand it. But I think for me I don't really want to sit idly and wait to become more cynical. I'd like to keep maintaining my positivity in the best way I can. I don't think it's inevitable.
Leela:I think again, another conversation I was having with a friend, you know we spoke about the importance of you know, obviously bad things are going to happen, but there's little steps you can take during the day to choose your own happiness and I think that's something I've been trying to kind of live out in my life recently and so when I speak to individuals you know my managers or you know folks that are really high up in the field I kind of lay it all on the table. I say, listen, like I'm a very transparent person, I care about people's well-being and emotions and that's why I entered this field and that's why it's important to me and honestly, I've said that in most of my interviews at this point. And the reality is, I think a lot of people agree, I think there's a lot of people that feel like we need to be more sensitive and empathetic in the workplace, but I think a lot of people have reached this point where they just don't think it's possible, where the world is too bleak and there's too much to be done that we can't, there's no time to be emotion. It's not productive, kind of, as I was saying before, and so usually when I get those responses from people, I kind of just I've been able to show, you know, I do my work, I do what is asked of me, I've been able to, you know, be a part of some really cool projects that I'm really grateful for, and so my emotions haven't stopped me from doing that.
Leela:You know, the anxieties I feel haven't stopped me, and I think that's something that I tell people when I work, when I work with those that are above me. So if I get emotional in a call which has happened many times when we're talking about something it's really hard to talk about, you know, just because I'm getting emotional doesn't mean that my ideas aren't good, and I think that's something that I hope all people can take away you know, not just women is that it's okay to feel really intensely. And if you feel really intensely and just have that moment like you were saying before, a collective grief and mourning, that's where some of the best ideas are born. You know, without grief there's no rebirth, right? I think like that's the circle of life, and I think that's how I hope we can start operating in the future.
Claire:Yeah, and I feel the need to clarify for our listeners what emotions we're talking about. Yeah, because there are different emotions and some emotions contract our bodies and our hearts and some emotions even anger or upset or outrage can actually be a big rush in the body and it can be written. Obviously, we're not talking about lashing out every time at the workplace or living in a constant state of fear and anxiety. We're talking about allowing for your heart to feel and allowing for that to inform what you have to say from a place of openness inside. It's an inner state of truth with yourself and authenticity. Yeah, obviously you're super angry and mad at someone. You're not going to lash at people in the workplace. Of course, you will express your anger in some way that is constructive and that's the work that any person wants to do to have a healthy relationship. So we're talking about this capacity to let your grief touch you, to let your work.
Claire:In the field where there's a lot of violence, there's a lot of pain, outrageous pain. So most people, what they do in the face of pain is that they close their heart because the pain is big and there is no way that you can solve it. So might as well not feel it, because what's the point of feeling so much pain if you can't do anything about it right? So that's how we close our heart and contract ourselves, and so what you're saying is that you allow the immensity of the issues to touch you, and that's the place from which you respond. So it gives the response a particular flavor of connection with the people that are involved.
Leela:Yeah, I definitely agree with that, and I think also, oftentimes, anger is also a manifestation of the other emotions you're talking about, of fear, of grief, of this feeling that you've kind of fallen into an abyss. And so I think what I found is some way, a way to prevent people, kind of similar to what I was saying before about you know why people join extremist groups or why they lash out with violence. I think because there hasn't been somebody or some capability or some resource for people to open up their hearts and to talk about what they're feeling, and so it manifests in anger and lashing out in various capacities. Obviously, not everybody is going to commit an act of violence, that's not what I'm saying but I think a lot of the time we get angry because we're unable or don't have the ability or the resources to express our true feelings when they're still grief, a seed of grief at that point. And so you know, I think for me, you know, as I said in my article, I'm somebody that you know unfortunately or fortunately, I guess, depending how you look at it you know where's their heart, on their sleeve, and I've never really been able to hide it, I guess, and that could just be a product of my upbringing, it could be a product of my brain chemistry I'm not quite sure, but I don't think.
Leela:You know, even though I have that part of me, I don't think it makes me illogical or makes me unaware of my surroundings. I think it just kind of, like you said, it adds a new flavor to the types of issues that I'm working on. That, I think, is sometimes overlooked, and I do think there's a lot of other people that feel how I do and, you know, feel how important it is to open up your heart. But it's scary, it's really scary to open up your heart and it's scary to talk about it. You know publicly that you're a sensitive person and I think I've just reached this point where I realize, you know, I myself, I have nothing to hide, I'm comfortable and if I can make one person feel better about the way that they're feeling, I feel like I've succeeded in some way. I feel like I've gotten through to someone and I think that's somehow how we need to approach the security issues. You know is reaching out to people, opening up our hearts to people so they can open up theirs to us.
Claire:What is scary?
Leela:What is scary? I think people and I've definitely been afraid of this I think people are afraid of judgment. I think people are afraid of failure. I think people equate emotional vulnerability with failure. And it takes a huge amount of strength to be vulnerable, and this is something I tell people all the time.
Leela:You know who are going through things. Sometimes a lot of friends that'll call me and say I'm going through a really hard time and I know I shouldn't be, and it's like why shouldn't you be? You're going through a hard time, you're going to feel emotional, you're going to feel vulnerable, and it takes a lot of strength to admit that and to open up your heart. And I think it's scary because everyone fears rejection and failure and judgment. I think that's human nature and I think if we foster a world in which, you know, I think a lot of that judgment also stems from people's own internal kind of fear of opening up their hearts. I think it's this kind of cycle of anxiety in which people feel like to succeed in life, you have to appear a certain way and anything that detracts from that is perceived as different from the norm, and I think that's what opening up your heart can look like to a lot of people, but I think their judgment comes from their own insecurities in themselves.
Claire:So you're saying it takes an enormous amount of strength to be vulnerable, and I think so, and you work in national security, where you're supposed to be very strong and not vulnerable. So what would it be like to have vulnerability as a primary value in your field? What would it mean and how could you speak about this in your field?
Leela:Yeah, I think vulnerability would create a more diverse workplace. I think, from every sense of the spectrum, it would make communities feel more comfortable. Talking to people that work in security, I mean, there's so much mistrust between law enforcement and the broader community, and for good reason. Right, you know, we've seen the news, we see what's going on in the media, but the reality is, I think practicing more emotional vulnerability, empathy, is going to rebuild trust. It's going to rebuild trust from all sides of the coin within full society and it's going to help people realize you know, no like, we're here to serve you, we're here to hear you and listen to you and help you. And I think the only way to do that and to rebuild that trust is through vulnerability. That is so inspiring.
Claire:I can literally as you speak, I can see as this, you know, connector creating this connection, Thank you, and I just have this vision of all this webs of connection between sectors that don't speak to each other and how that would bring healing I hope so and create a much stronger system right.
Leela:Exactly, and I think that's what I've been trying to say when I talk to people.
Leela:You know, I think the long game is, if we're able to build those connections, it's going to make a more innovative, more successful, more healthy society, and, I think, a lot of people.
Leela:When you're caught up in the day to day and when you have these responsibilities right, it's hard to take the time to think about that. So I think for me, because I feel like I work in this field and in a position where I can think about these types of things, I want to kind of use my privilege and try to operate in that space like the privilege of time that I have and ability to think about these things, because obviously you know people who are worrying about when their next paycheck is, you know when their next meal is going to be. You're not going to have as much of an impetus to think about these things. But for us who are like in the national security field and a lot of people who have platforms and significant platforms to talk about these things, I think should be talking about them more. It has to come, you know, from top positions as well. So beautiful, beautiful.
Claire:What support do you need to realize your vision? Because my sense is that you have a mission and your heart is already informing you how to lead that mission. So what would be the support that would really make a difference today in your life?
Leela:I think from a work, I guess I could say from a workplace and, I guess, a personal life perspective, I think from a workplace perspective, I think just having avenues for people to speak frankly and transparently with their manager. Something I loved that my old manager from CRDF Global did was she gave us a moment for radical candor and I actually really like radical candor moments. I know a lot of people don't, because a lot of people, kind of what we were saying before, don't feel comfortable kind of opening up themselves like that, which is very understandable, right. But I think at least knowing that there is that opportunity, that your manager is making that opportunity for you, even if you don't feel comfortable to do it at that time, knowing that there's an option, you know, for you to just speak your heart right and kind of speak your feelings out loud, I think.
Leela:From a personal perspective, I think surrounding myself with people that are different for me is huge. I know that not everyone is going to be as emotional as me. I have friends that don't speak as openly about things or maybe don't. Some people say I come across as a bit intense. So I have people that maybe aren't, are a little more quiet or introverted or don't come across in the same way, and I think that's helped to make me who I am. I would not be thinking about these things if everybody was exactly the same as me, and so I think, surrounding myself with like constant diversity, I think also my own identity you know being South Asian, but also, you know, irish American on the other side. I think all of those factors, all of that diversity, has enabled me to think about these things, and I just think surrounding yourself with people that think differently from you is the only way to challenge yourself, both emotionally and intellectually, and there's also fear associated with that. But I think it's really important. Is that this?
Claire:fear associated with that.
Leela:I think people are afraid of what they don't know. I think they're afraid of you know what they'll find, and I think we live in a world that's so, you know. People kind of stick to their own, I guess, which, again, is understandable. But I think, for me, just by product of being a child of, I guess, two different cultures, I mean, I am an American, but another way in which you are a bridge right.
Leela:I guess. So I mean, I used to say like I kind of straddle both worlds in some sense, and I think I've tried to translate that, you know, into my work, because I think something I dealt with in high school and early college was just feeling completely lost and like I didn't fit in anywhere because I couldn't really figure out my own identity. And the way I've kind of bridged, you know, my two ethnic identities has been through my emotion, has been through my ability to be vulnerable in the way that I can. And so I'm now I'm grateful for having both identities and kind of these different worlds that I operate in, because I just think without that I wouldn't be who.
Claire:I am and I wouldn't be doing the work that I'm doing, so yeah, yeah, leela, thank you for bringing your whole self in service of this important work. I wish you the best, and I know that you'll be successful in your career not in a conventional way, that in a way that will participate in the transition that we're going through collectively. I really have that deep sense for you that you are someone who has an important purpose to fulfill in this area, and I'm very excited about that. Is there anything that? Is there something that you would like to add before we end this beautiful conversation, leela?
Leela:Yeah, no, I feel very complete and full. I think the last thing I would say is just, you know, I know how difficult it is to be a sensitive person, to be a sensitive woman in the workplace, and just know that, even if it doesn't seem like it, there are others that feel like you and think about the things you think about, and you're not alone, because it can be lonely. So just a reminder that you're never alone and there's always avenues of support and resources to help you. Thank you, leela. Thank you, claire. I really enjoyed this chat.
Claire:Thank you for listening to Women Rise. If you enjoyed the show today, please leave us a review. To get announcements when a new podcast is published, send me an email at Claire at UnixelfEmergencecom to be added on my distribution list. If you're interested in being a guest on my podcast or you would like to join my private free group for female leaders, go to my podcast description for the links to apply. Thanks again and see you soon on the Women Rise podcast.